Will the real Jesus please stand up?

[spike]

Good Morning, Everyone!

Resist being offended at the title of the Topic. It is not meant to be disrespectful.

The statement had been made in another thread that I, along with many of my contemporaries, are not Christians because we believe in a 'different Jesus'. This statement has always fascinated me, considering where I have been getting my fill of Christ's Word for all of these years - the good ol' standard Bible, KJV. It always seemed to be an accurate source before.

I have recently been baptised into the LDS church. My experience was much like that of another poster to these forums, Crickets, with one critical difference - I was made fully aware of the 'polytheistic' nature of LDS Theology (which I have always ascribed to anyway, believing Christ and God to have been separate in form and united - one - in spirit and purpose), the concept of eternal progression, the law of tithing (from Old Testament days), the sagas of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the controversy of polygamy, the dreaded Planet Kolob issue, etc., etc. I read *all sorts* of literature that presented viewpoints opposing LDS Theology to insure that I was comfortable with what I was being presented with. I have balanced this against the real-world actions and practices of those LDS faithful around me and based my decisions upon that and a combination of other factors, including the fact that LDS theology does address certain issues in a way that is done incompletely, or not at all, by other factions of Christianity. Historical reference as regards to the action of mortal men in past times does not always hold sway with regards to how I practise my own faith in Christ, therefore, much of the ad hominem attack against J. Smith, regardless of his mortal faults and limitations, has little effect on my basic conclusions regarding LDS Theology today.

So, there are my biases. What I am genuinely curious about is the 'different Jesus' claim (which has probably been beat to death in these forums, but, Hey, I'm new here, so I missed it). I am interested in why some come to this conclusion, and welcome your reference and viewpoints. Biblical references, if given, will be dutifully researched by myself and read 'in toto' to better understand the proper context by which they were presented (read: I'll do my homework if you assign it). Viewpoints, as opposed to simple scripture, are welcome as well, since we have all been blessed by our Heavenly Father with the magnificent attributes of intellect and free will, and I believe that He intended us to use them in ascertaining and developing spiritual guidance where there exist those gaps where scripture does not provide exact answers.

Some final thoughts. Please do not bother to start with the words of Paul with regards to 'false Gospel; therefore, different Jesus'. You know which verse I'm referring to. It is a given that many do not believe the Book of Mormon to be a true gospel account. This does nothing to present or define the argument. If I were to find the Words of Jesus in a children's book, they would still be His Word. If I found them within the pages of War and Peace, they would still be His Word. Similarly, if I decided to author 'The Book of Spike' tomorrow, and lifted His Word from the Bible, merely reproducing it, it would not diminish or invalidate His Word. Thus, saying that the BoM isn't a true gospel does nothing to advance the 'different Jesus' argument if the text is basically the same. I want your ideas and references as they directly pertain to spoken word or theological stand.

My reference will be a 'quad' which contains the standard KJV Bible (seems ubiquitous enough within all of the Christian community, so it will be easy to cross-reference for me). Greatest emphasis will be placed upon comparisons generated from the KJV and BoM proper. Quotes from LDS Church leaders will, of course, be considered, but again - the main thrust of my question is how the two books present, in your eyes, a different version of Christ, as He is presented within those references.

And, before anyone tries to make an issue of it, I will see no problem with referring to opposing viewpoints as 'pro-DJ (pro-different Jesus)' and 'anti-DJ (anti-different Jesus)' in occasional commentary. They refer to the viewpoint expressed, not the individual expressing it, and it is a tight definition. Attempts to divert the topic on this point will be regarded as moot and the machinations of troublemakers...

So, educate Spike! Tell me what you think.. and have an excellent day!

-spike-

 

[solar_mirth]

you must have read the "praise to the man thread." that whole "anti-" thing was really pointless.

one small thing that i find odd about the mormon jesus is that when he left the americas, all those that were evil were destroyed. it seems odd that the jesus of the new testament would pray forgiveness to his killers, yet kill the wicked in the bom. it is a paradox. why was he not merciful like in the bible?

 

[Theway]

you must have read the "praise to the man thread." that whole "anti-" thing was really pointless.

one small thing that i find odd about the mormon jesus is that when he left the americas, all those that were evil were destroyed. it seems odd that the jesus of the new testament would pray forgiveness to his killers, yet kill the wicked in the bom. it is a paradox. why was he not merciful like in the bible?

Are you saying what happened to the Jews was merciful. IMO Jesus was talking about the Roman's as many of the Jews know what they did.

 

[solar_mirth]

did i miss something? the jews didn't all die did they?

 

[MizDoulos]

A reminder: Part of this thread is already sounding a little volatile, and before the discussion turns into a personal conflict of viewpoints, do keep in mind the forum rules. Please think twice before posting as warnings will be issued if the rules are violated.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Serapha]

Good Morning, Everyone!

Resist being offended at the title of the Topic. It is not meant to be disrespectful.

The statement had been made in another thread that I, along with many of my contemporaries, are not Christians because we believe in a 'different Jesus'. This statement has always fascinated me, considering where I have been getting my fill of Christ's Word for all of these years - the good ol' standard Bible, NKJV. It always seemed to be an accurate source before.

I have recently been baptised into the LDS church. My experience was much like that of another poster to these forums, Crickets, with one critical difference - I was made fully aware of the 'polytheistic' nature of LDS Theology (which I have always ascribed to anyway, believing Christ and God to have been separate in form and united - one - in spirit and purpose), the concept of eternal progression, the law of tithing (from Old Testament days), the sagas of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the controversy of polygamy, the dreaded Planet Kolob issue, etc., etc. I read *all sorts* of literature that presented viewpoints opposing LDS Theology to insure that I was comfortable with what I was being presented with. I have balanced this against the real-world actions and practices of those LDS faithful around me and based my decisions upon that and a combination of other factors, including the fact that LDS theology does address certain issues in a way that is done incompletely, or not at all, by other factions of Christianity. Historical reference as regards to the action of mortal men in past times does not always hold sway with regards to how I practise my own faith in Christ, therefore, much of the ad hominem attack against J. Smith, regardless of his mortal faults and limitations, has little effect on my basic conclusions regarding LDS Theology today.

So, there are my biases. What I am genuinely curious about is the 'different Jesus' claim (which has probably been beat to death in these forums, but, Hey, I'm new here, so I missed it). I am interested in why some come to this conclusion, and welcome your reference and viewpoints. Biblical references, if given, will be dutifully researched by myself and read 'in toto' to better understand the proper context by which they were presented (read: I'll do my homework if you assign it). Viewpoints, as opposed to simple scripture, are welcome as well, since we have all been blessed by our Heavenly Father with the magnificent attributes of intellect and free will, and I believe that He intended us to use them in ascertaining and developing spiritual guidance where there exist those gaps where scripture does not provide exact answers.

Some final thoughts. Please do not bother to start with the words of Paul with regards to 'false Gospel; therefore, different Jesus'. You know which verse I'm referring to. It is a given that many do not believe the Book of Mormon to be a true gospel account. This does nothing to present or define the argument. If I were to find the Words of Jesus in a children's book, they would still be His Word. If I found them within the pages of War and Peace, they would still be His Word. Similarly, if I decided to author 'The Book of Spike' tomorrow, and lifted His Word from the Bible, merely reproducing it, it would not diminish or invalidate His Word. Thus, saying that the BoM isn't a true gospel does nothing to advance the 'different Jesus' argument if the text is basically the same. I want your ideas and references as they directly pertain to spoken word or theological stand.

My reference will be a 'quad' which contains the standard NKJV Bible (seems ubiquitous enough within all of the Christian community, so it will be easy to cross-reference for me). Greatest emphasis will be placed upon comparisons generated from the NKJV and BoM proper. Quotes from LDS Church leaders will, of course, be considered, but again - the main thrust of my question is how the two books present, in your eyes, a different version of Christ, as He is presented within those references.

And, before anyone tries to make an issue of it, I will see no problem with referring to opposing viewpoints as 'pro-DJ (pro-different Jesus)' and 'anti-DJ (anti-different Jesus)' in occasional commentary. They refer to the viewpoint expressed, not the individual expressing it, and it is a tight definition. Attempts to divert the topic on this point will be regarded as moot and the machinations of troublemakers...

So, educate Spike! Tell me what you think.. and have an excellent day!

-spike-

Hi there!



I would be glad to discuss the "different Jesus" thoughts with you, point by point.... as long as you don't deviate from the discussions... and as long as you address issues and not people. If you are agreed, state so.. and I will begin posting point-by-point.

For a beginning point, explain the plan of salvation as you know it to be as a professing LDS. Don't leave any tangents out that you want to insert later.



~serapha~

 

[spike]

First, let me thank MizDoules for for establishing 'rules of conduct', if you will.

For a beginning point, explain the plan of salvation as you know it to be as a professing LDS. Don't leave any tangents out that you want to insert later.

Hello, Serapha~

My attempt at explaining the Plan of Salvation is bound to leave out a few critical details, as my memory could not render it so completely without assistance from a little backup material. Plus, I would do a disservice to the discussion to not have it presented correctly - thus, I am reproducing a section of an article from R. E. Lee. Scriptural references are part of the original article.

"The following is a basic outline of the plan:

We worship God as the almighty ruler of heaven and earth. He is our Father in Heaven. We lived with Him as spirits before we were born. We are His children and belong to His eternal family (see Heb. 12:9). He loves us and wants us to achieve true, eternal happiness (see Rom. 8:16-17). To enable us to become like Him, our Father in Heaven prepared a plan that allows us to come to earth and receive a physical body. This life is a time of testing to see if we will keep His commandments (see Abr. 3:24-25). Having no memory of our premortal life, we must act by faith (see 2 Cor. 5:6-7). He gives us commandments, ordinances, and covenants to point the way we should go to fulfill our eternal potential (see Moses 5:58-59). We will be held accountable for our decisions and actions (see D&C 101:78). We experience difficulties, trials, and temptations. By overcoming them through faith in His Beloved Son we develop many of the characteristics of our Heavenly Father (see Heb. 12:10-11).

The sins we commit make us unworthy to dwell in the presence of God (see 1 Ne. 15:34). But because He loves His children, our Heavenly Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to redeem us. Jesus fulfilled the will of the Father and voluntarily suffered and gave His life to pay for our sins. Through His Resurrection, He overcame physical death so that we can again obtain a physical body after our death. His suffering, death, and Resurrection are called the Atonement (see LDS Bible Dictionary, “Atonement,” 617). To enjoy here in mortality and hereafter all the blessings that come from Christ’s sacrifice, we are to accept Him and live according to His example and teachings (see A of F 1:3).

When we die, our spirit leaves our physical body, but the spirit is still alive and goes to the spirit world (see Alma 40:11-13). There we await the Resurrection and Judgment. In the spirit world the gospel is taught to all who died without hearing or accepting Jesus Christ and His gospel (see D&C 138:32-34).

When we are resurrected, our physical bodies and spirits are reunited, never to be separated again (see Alma 11:43, 45). The degree of glory we experience depends on our faithfulness to Heavenly Father’s teachings. If we have been faithful and worthy, we will be with our Father in celestial glory. Those who qualify to be exalted in the highest degree of this glory receive a fulness of joy (see D&C 132:19-20). There are lesser degrees of glory for those who have been less valiant in obeying His teachings (see D&C 76:96-98)."

Robert England Lee, “Teaching Our Children the Plan of Salvation,” Ensign, Sept. 2001, 33

-spike-

 

[solar_mirth]

i apologize if my comment seemed inflamatory. i am sorry and i will watch my tone. i was merely trying to question what was meant. i don't understand about the comment that something horrible happened to the jews. what happened that could compare with the deaths of all of the wicked people?

 

[JVAC]

I think it is also prudent to point out the LDS belief of a three gods. Our belief of who Jesus is differs here far greatest for Jesus is God to us Christians and to deny such a thing would tend to make Him something Completely different. As the Creed says: "So the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods but one God." (athanasian). Thus we have a problem with LDS saying three gods rather than a Triune God. However, this could get into a heavy discussion on the Doctrine of the Trinity which there are many of, but I had to mention that Jesus, to us Christians, is God, Ancient of Days as it is written, "He shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace" (somewhere in Isaiah I think, also I forgot a name) and these are names given to the three aspects of God yet one God. The LDS belief of Father God directing God the Son, being a sperate being, is not Christian for it denies the truth that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the same all powerful, triune God.

Thus Jesus is not the same to a person who thinks of Jesus as God (christian) compared to one who thinks of Jesus as a God (LDS). For Herecules never equaled Zeus in mythology so does the LDS erect a mythology about the Father and Son relationship of God. Jesus is not a demi-god but the real deal. Thus we have a differing Jesus, the LDS a demi-god who does the bidding of an all powerful and distant father or the Christian Jesus "God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one being with the Father" (Nicene).

 

[Serapha]

First, let me thank MizDoules for for establishing 'rules of conduct', if you will.



Hello, Serapha~

My attempt at explaining the Plan of Salvation is bound to leave out a few critical details, as my memory could not render it so completely without assistance from a little backup material. Plus, I would do a disservice to the discussion to not have it presented correctly - thus, I am reproducing a section of an article from R. E. Lee. Scriptural references are part of the original article.

"The following is a basic outline of the plan:

We worship God as the almighty ruler of heaven and earth. He is our Father in Heaven. We lived with Him as spirits before we were born. We are His children and belong to His eternal family (see Heb. 12:9). He loves us and wants us to achieve true, eternal happiness (see Rom. 8:16-17). To enable us to become like Him, our Father in Heaven prepared a plan that allows us to come to earth and receive a physical body. This life is a time of testing to see if we will keep His commandments (see Abr. 3:24-25). Having no memory of our premortal life, we must act by faith (see 2 Cor. 5:6-7). He gives us commandments, ordinances, and covenants to point the way we should go to fulfill our eternal potential (see Moses 5:58-59). We will be held accountable for our decisions and actions (see D&C 101:78). We experience difficulties, trials, and temptations. By overcoming them through faith in His Beloved Son we develop many of the characteristics of our Heavenly Father (see Heb. 12:10-11).

The sins we commit make us unworthy to dwell in the presence of God (see 1 Ne. 15:34). But because He loves His children, our Heavenly Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to redeem us. Jesus fulfilled the will of the Father and voluntarily suffered and gave His life to pay for our sins. Through His Resurrection, He overcame physical death so that we can again obtain a physical body after our death. His suffering, death, and Resurrection are called the Atonement (see LDS Bible Dictionary, “Atonement,” 617). To enjoy here in mortality and hereafter all the blessings that come from Christ’s sacrifice, we are to accept Him and live according to His example and teachings (see A of F 1:3).

When we die, our spirit leaves our physical body, but the spirit is still alive and goes to the spirit world (see Alma 40:11-13). There we await the Resurrection and Judgment. In the spirit world the gospel is taught to all who died without hearing or accepting Jesus Christ and His gospel (see D&C 138:32-34).

When we are resurrected, our physical bodies and spirits are reunited, never to be separated again (see Alma 11:43, 45). The degree of glory we experience depends on our faithfulness to Heavenly Father’s teachings. If we have been faithful and worthy, we will be with our Father in celestial glory. Those who qualify to be exalted in the highest degree of this glory receive a fulness of joy (see D&C 132:19-20). There are lesser degrees of glory for those who have been less valiant in obeying His teachings (see D&C 76:96-98)."

Robert England Lee, “Teaching Our Children the Plan of Salvation,” Ensign, Sept. 2001, 33

-spike-

Hi there!




I'm not interested in cut-n-paste theology. You posted that you wanted a discussion...

"What I am genuinely curious about is the 'different Jesus' claim (which has probably been beat to death in these forums, but, Hey, I'm new here, so I missed it)."


How about if we just close the discussion, and I send you to about 15 sites for your reading pleasure?


~serapha~

 

[Serapha]

Here's your information.... I found that by doing a search on the internet.... just put in "not same Jesus LDS" and you will get a ton of information.... You can save it for your next "cut-n-paste" episode.

1. The LDS Jesus, CARM
   
   ... all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p.7 ... Mormonism definitely does not teach the same Jesus as Christianity. ...
   www.carm.org/lds/lds_jesus.htm
   
   
2. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Read about our Basic Beliefs, study The Scriptures online, search our comprehensive Gospel Library and discover your Family History. ... I would like to apply that same theme to all of us, for few of us do not have at least one Goliath to contend with." ...
   www.lds.org/site_main_menu/frameset-global.html
   
   
3. Introduction: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints An Introduction to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by a member, Jeff Lindsay. ... to not be Christian? Several common attacks are discussed on the "LDS FAQ" ... (Note that the same wording is used to ...
   www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
   
   
4. Is Jehovah Jesus or is he the same as Elohim? The concept of who God and Jesus are have changed in Mormon theology. ... active member of the LDS faith will now tell ... in the same (The Father) and Jesus to be Jesus (The ... I did not realize that it was Jesus Christ, or ...
   www.lds-mormon.com/godsname.shtml
   
   
5. Plural Marriage and Church of Jesus Christ of LDS Why some members and former members of the Church of Jesus Christ LSS believe in plural marriage.
   www.gcje.net/plural_marriage_and_church.htm
   
   
6. The Watchman Expositor: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Profile ... The Temples are not for worship, but are used for ceremonies for the living and the dead. ... an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (LDS History of the ...
   www.watchman.org/ldspro.htm
   
   
7. deseretnews.com | LDS faith not green anymore Story from deseretnews.com, the Web edition of Deseret Morning News. - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made the transition from a new to established religion, speakers said Friday at Brigham Young University. ... "It isn't easy to stay the same," she said. ...
   www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405013493,00.html
   
   
8. Mormonism, Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, examined and documented. Mormonism, Mormon, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not Christian. It is a false religion. Find out why. ... They don't mean the same thing. Difficult Questions for Mormons to ... Was the LDS Jesus born of the Virgin Mary? ...
   www.carm.org/mormon.htm
   
   
9. lds. church of jesus christ of latter day saints mormons lds President Gordon B. Hinckley and the First Presidency of the Church the Quorum the Twelve Apostles published manual Gordon B. Hinckley Apostles Church
   www.angelfire.com/ca5/real/page1
   
   
10. LDS Anti-Gay Chronology A history of anti-gay Mormon activities from 1988 to 1997 (with links to more current information). ... Mormon / LDS Chronology Of Involvement In Same-Sex Marriage Politics ... Dec 1990 Three same-sex couples apply for marriage ... Hawaii marriage law does not specify anything about the ...
    www.lds-mormon.com/lds.shtml
    
    
11. The Watchman Expositor: The Jesus of The LDS Church ... However, Jesus was not the only son of God the Father and God the Mother. As Spencer W. Kimball, twelveth LDS prophet ... born in the same personal, real, and literal ...
    www.watchman.org/jesuslds.htm
    
    
12. LDSCN - The LDS Daily WOOL Archive© - Thou Shalt Not Covet The LDS Daily WOOL© Archive - Thou Shalt Not Covet "Wealth is a relative thing. Conditions vary dramatically from place to place in the world today. ... improvement in material prosperity remain the same. The message that ... is clear:... Thou shalt not covet.". Dean L. Larsen ...
    www.ldscn.com/wool/covet.shtml
    
    
13. LDS Film|Movies by Latter-day Saints|LDS Videos|Utah filmmakers Latter-day Saint (Mormon) film directors, producers, screenwriters, actors, cinematographers and composers and the films they have made. ... America: Mike Nichols (not LDS, not GLBT) is directing 6-hour ... Screen Door Jesus: dramatic comedy directed by Kirk Davis; starring ... after World War II (same characters played by Gena ...
    www.ldsfilm.com
    
    
14. The Salt Lake Tribune -- LDS apostle decries same-sex marriage ... LDS apostle decries same-sex marriage ... leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about ... position on the family so clear that it could not be misunderstood." ...
    www.sltrib.com/2003/Aug/08212003/utah/85708.asp
    
    
15. BaptistMessenger.com || Concept of knowing the right Jesus crucial ... Jesus we believe in," I told him. "The Christ of the LDS Church and the one of the Christian faith are not the same." ...
    www.baptistmessenger.com/Issue/000518/7.html

 

[gort]

Will the real Jesus please stand up?

Christ Jesus paid our debt of sin on the Cross. All sins. Yet your prohet Brigham Young had said.....

"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness ... and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone, for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world."

So which is the real Jesus?


1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[ah_muse]

...The statement had been made in another thread that I, along with many of my contemporaries, are not Christians because we believe in a 'different Jesus'...
... What I am genuinely curious about is the 'different Jesus' claim (which has probably been beat to death in these forums, but, Hey, I'm new here, so I missed it). I am interested in why some come to this conclusion, and welcome your reference and viewpoints....
So, educate Spike! Tell me what you think.. and have an excellent day!

-spike-

Jesus Christ is not the salvation of the Mormons because His salvation is a GIFT to those who believe in His name(John 1:12).

His name is not the name of the Mormon Jesus.
His name is not "the Brother of Lucifer/Satan" and His name is not "the Son of Lucifer/Satan's Father" (Gospel Principles pp. 11, 17, 18).
His name is not "your spirit sibling of the incestuous, polygamous Elohim" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547, 742; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 589-590; The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 6-7; Family Home Evenings Manual, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1972, p. 125-126; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan Pub., 1992, p. 725, 729, 739, 740, 1670, 1671; Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115, vol. 11, p. 268; The Seer, p. 158.)

 

[Crickets]

In a nutshell most LDS believe Jesus Christ:

(1.) Has a glorified body of flesh and bones today.

(2.) Is a separate being from God the Father and the Holy Ghost.

(3.) Is the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and directs its activities today.

The first is not too controversial, like Elijah before him, Christ did ascend into heaven body and all. The second becomes an interesting argument in that most Christians believe that God the Father is Jehovah of the Old Testament and the LDS believe Jesus Christ to be that person as well. That Jesus Prayed to his Father in Heaven in the Garden and on the cross indicates to me that he and his father clearly led separate lives. Further, someone had to stay behind and make sure that the universe ran smoothly. It is highly unlikely that any non-LDS are going to accept the third.

As for the doctrine of multiple gods, I have not fully decided whether to leave the church over it. I admit the process of working it out with another member on another message board but I must admit I get a bad feeling about it in the pit of my stomach. They won't let me post a link but this is what the man says:

Cricket,

Our Heavenly father is a Divine Man. He has a Father & Mother and was once a spirit child born to them. He was later given a body of flesh and bone and sent to a world to be tested as we are. He was afterward resurrected into celestial glory and exalted. The place that is close to him is called Kolob. We don’t know much about it except that it is a long way from us as we live in a telestial space.

Our God’s Father showed him all things and made him infinite just as he is. Bear in mind that our God’s Father also has a Father as does his Father and so on for all infinity past. There never was a first Father. Likewise, there never was a first created thing. The concept that God was alone for all eternity past before ever a created thing was first made is false. The eternal God’s of our ancestral line are caught up together in eternal glory. That is what they want to do for us which is to exalt us and allow us to do the same thing which they do. But, our God will always be our God and we will worship him forever just as our God worships his Father.

I hope this doctrine is not too hard for you to bear. Think on it as you contemplate how much God loves you and how much he wants to really give you.

I will let everyone know my decision. I am currently working my way through the the King Follet sermon but such statements as

Every man has a natural, and, in our country, a constitutional right to be a false prophet, as well as a true prophet. If I show, verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God's kingdom on earth, and was to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood.

Point me in the direction of another denomination. I will certainly let you all know the outcome. I ask only that the spirit of the Lord be with me as I decide. You must understand that if I choose wrong that I will be severely punished for being led astray and at present multiple gods seem more like being led astray than does the more orthodox Christain view. Although I do know that there is scriptural justification for both. Merry Christmas everyone and may God bless and keep you all.

 

[spike]

I'm not interested in cut-n-paste theology. You posted that you wanted a discussion...

How about if we just close the discussion, and I send you to about 15 sites for your reading pleasure?

~serapha~

Serapha, serapha...

Imagine that you encountered someone who genuinely wanted to learn more about the Bible and the Faith experience of others. Would you not consider discussing your views, as well as providing links? I do appreciate you having provided the links, and will check them out as I have the chance (I have extremely limited computer access so it may take a few days to read and digest all of the material within).

Don't take offense at the notion of cutting/pasting; you asked a question that I felt needed greater clarity of definition than I could provide from my own thoughts. I did not author the Plan. Similarly, I do not expect you to create your own scripture or paraphrase the Bible when giving the actual quote would do a better job, in your opinion, of answering a given question. There is nothing written that I have yet found, in the Biblical sense, that answers the question so directly that I have put forth; thus, it has become a subject of debate where we must draw conclusions based upon elements of scripture and the reader's personal thoughts. You felt similarly if you have consulted these sites in drawing your conclusion.

If you wish not to interject or discuss further, I understand. I value your own thoughts and opinions, though, should you decide to share them. Really, I don't bite..

And, Merry Christmas to all..!


-spike-

 

[spike]

His name is not the name of the Mormon Jesus.
His name is not "the Brother of Lucifer/Satan" and His name is not "the Son of Lucifer/Satan's Father" [/size][/font](Gospel Principles pp. 11, 17, 18).
His name is not "your spirit sibling of the incestuous, polygamous Elohim" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547, 742; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 589-590; The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 6-7; Family Home Evenings Manual, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1972, p. 125-126; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan Pub., 1992, p. 725, 729, 739, 740, 1670, 1671; Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115, vol. 11, p. 268; The Seer, p. 158.)

Good Morning, ah-muse ~

I note these references, but they merely state that, 'Jesus is not..', then merely provide a reference to LDS literature that would state that He is whatever the claim is. This does not tell my why He isn't the 'same Jesus', as there is no reference provided to state otherwise. Can you be more specific?

-spike-

 

[spike]

Christ Jesus paid our debt of sin on the Cross. All sins. Yet your prophet Brigham Young had said.....

"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness ... and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone, for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world."

So which is the real Jesus?


1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Daneel~

I note B. Young's quote, but I also see that it does not mention Jesus, rather, it seems to be his opinion on the existence of 'unforgivable sin'. Did Brigham proclaim that Jesus did not possess the power to forgive all sin?

-spike-

 

[spike]

Hello, JVAC.. Thank you for posting..

I think it is also prudent to point out the LDS belief of three gods. Our belief of who Jesus is differs here far greatest for Jesus is God to us Christians and to deny such a thing would tend to make Him something Completely different. As the Creed says: "So the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods but one God." (athanasian).

This is correct. I was quite surprised to find out that I was not considered to be a 'Christian', even before my introduction to the LDS church, based upon my feelings regarding the Trinity as defined by the Nicene Creed. However, there is ample basis within the Bible to see it both ways. Additionally, this presents the unique problem of the paradox of Salvation, in that any Christians that had died before the official authoring of the Creed cannot have been termed so by its definition, which didn't exist at the time. The Triune nature of the Godhead is not specifically defined as such in the Bible with regards to the Nicene definition. Where does that leave adherants of early Christianity? Can we honestly say that they were not truly Christian if the question of the Godhead had not 'officially' been 'concluded' during their time by a Creed that attempts to do so almost 400 years later? The very fact that there needed to be a Creed at all meant that there was conjecture and disagreement on the issue, hence, not all Christians thought alike - and yet, they all ascribed to the principles of Christianity.

Thus we have a problem with LDS saying three gods rather than a Triune God. However, this could get into a heavy discussion on the Doctrine of the Trinity which there are many of,..

Oops. Kinda like I just started. Sorry!

..but I had to mention that Jesus, to us Christians, is God, Ancient of Days as it is written, "He shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace" (somewhere in Isaiah I think, also I forgot a name) and these are names given to the three aspects of God yet one God. The LDS belief of Father God directing God the Son, being a seperate being, is not Christian for it denies the truth that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the same all powerful, triune God.

Yes, but again, this is as defined by the Creed. I understand the reasoning, but the Creed is, in my opinion, an elaboration of scripture and authored by man, therefore, it contains the same flaw of nature that folks opposed to LDS theology state - that it is an elaboration of scripture, and authored by man.

..Thus Jesus is not the same to a person who thinks of Jesus as God (christian) compared to one who thinks of Jesus as a God (LDS). For Herecules never equaled Zeus in mythology so does the LDS erect a mythology about the Father and Son relationship of God. Jesus is not a demi-god but the real deal. Thus we have a differing Jesus, the LDS a demi-god who does the bidding of an all powerful and distant father or the Christian Jesus "God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one being with the Father" (Nicene).

Again, though, it is the Creed here that is providing the weight of that definition. I understand that (as defined by the rules of this forum) this is the qualifier for many Christians. I am hoping for more actual Biblical references to support the idea with that kind of clarity.

JVAC, I appreciate your thoughts and I thank you for sharing them!

Please have a safe and happy Holiday Season!

-spike-

 

[spike]

Hello, Crickets! It is good to see you in here. I trust that I have not offended you in mentioning your experience within the text of my first post.

As for the doctrine of multiple gods, I have not fully decided whether to leave the church over it. I admit the process of working it out with another member on another message board but I must admit I get a bad feeling about it in the pit of my stomach. .

I understand this point. From the Triune standpoint, the 'multiple gods' theory seems to exclude me from traditional Christianity in the eyes of fellow adherants, but it does not diminish my faith. From the eternal progression standpoint, it does not sway or determine my actions (i.e. they are not done for hopes of reward).

I will let everyone know my decision... such statements as (inserted quote) (p)oint me in the direction of another denomination. I will certainly let you all know the outcome. I ask only that the spirit of the Lord be with me as I decide. You must understand that if I choose wrong that I will be severely punished for being led astray and at present multiple gods seem more like being led astray than does the more orthodox Christain view. Although I do know that there is scriptural justification for both. Merry Christmas everyone and may God bless and keep you all.

I wish you luck and hope that you find what will give you peace in your heart. Please let us know how things are working out.. and have a good Christmas!

-spike-

 

[MizDoulos]

Point me in the direction of another denomination. I will certainly let you all know the outcome. I ask only that the spirit of the Lord be with me as I decide. You must understand that if I choose wrong that I will be severely punished for being led astray and at present multiple gods seem more like being led astray than does the more orthodox Christain view. Although I do know that there is scriptural justification for both. Merry Christmas everyone and may God bless and keep you all.

A reminder to everyone: Please be aware that there will be no promotion of any other religion than those within mainstream Christianity. Do review Rules 5 and 6 for more details.

By asking for opinions in searching for a religion, other members may inadvertently violate Rule 5; therefore, please refrain from publically asking for advice in this forum.

I appreciate your understanding and cooperation.