Will Sinners Burn Forever?
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brotherjim
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brotherjim
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And we can likely assume that the spirits heralded were not the spirits of man, because the next verse defines them as those who "sometime were disobedient," whereas we know The Flood came because man was evil continually. And we can also likely further assume the verse didn't mean "some who were at a time in history disobedient," because why then would Christ confine His proclamation to only those before and/or during the days of Noah and not also after? But, as I implied, these are my assumptions.
"By which also [Christ] went and preached onto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah . . .."
But if any have additional knowledge and/or wisdom here, I would be very interested in hearing.
adam,
On a personal note:
It occurred to me that you might have judged me as toying with you regarding my prior two posts. I hope you will believe that I sincerely either didn't know or remember what the passage I had referred to was talking about - I hadn't thought about this for many years. The only phrase I could remember at the time was Jesus preaching to "those" in "prison." It was only after your reply when I looked up the verse. So my saying to you "very good" was not of a condescending and patronizing manner, but my honest reaction when I looked up the passage and then saw you had already addressed it for what it is - however terse.
Also, while I don't want to speak for CIR, and I hope he corrects me if I'm wrong, but I believe the "eternal separation" thing comes from a theological conclusion regarding the word "death" in some of the places where it's used in scripture. In Romans especially, when the word is read in context, I believe "they" have concluded that it often means not physical death but being eternally separated from God, i.e. spiritual death. But I hope he answers.
bro. jim
"By which also [Christ] went and preached onto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah . . .."
But if any have additional knowledge and/or wisdom here, I would be very interested in hearing.
adam,
On a personal note:
It occurred to me that you might have judged me as toying with you regarding my prior two posts. I hope you will believe that I sincerely either didn't know or remember what the passage I had referred to was talking about - I hadn't thought about this for many years. The only phrase I could remember at the time was Jesus preaching to "those" in "prison." It was only after your reply when I looked up the verse. So my saying to you "very good" was not of a condescending and patronizing manner, but my honest reaction when I looked up the passage and then saw you had already addressed it for what it is - however terse.
Also, while I don't want to speak for CIR, and I hope he corrects me if I'm wrong, but I believe the "eternal separation" thing comes from a theological conclusion regarding the word "death" in some of the places where it's used in scripture. In Romans especially, when the word is read in context, I believe "they" have concluded that it often means not physical death but being eternally separated from God, i.e. spiritual death. But I hope he answers.
bro. jim
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adam332
Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t
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Bro. Jim,
the worm that is not destroyed? Well that's easy it would have to be an "immortal worm in an asbestos suit".
Taht is, since everyone one else gets eternal life, cause no body dies according to some.
Also please see my thread called "Preaching to Spirits?". I think you mistook my comment for a bit of semantics. I meant to say that Christ did NO PREACHING AT ALL when He was in the grave. And be it known that the Bible never says he did.....
the worm that is not destroyed? Well that's easy it would have to be an "immortal worm in an asbestos suit".
Taht is, since everyone one else gets eternal life, cause no body dies according to some.
Also please see my thread called "Preaching to Spirits?". I think you mistook my comment for a bit of semantics. I meant to say that Christ did NO PREACHING AT ALL when He was in the grave. And be it known that the Bible never says he did.....
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adam332
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Andrew,
how many verses will it take to show you that those words were used both literally and figuratively? And how many verses do you need that tell us the wicked are DESTROYED, before you realize which manner it must be using whn speaking of the wicked. It is very simple math.
Wicked Forever(literal) cannot = Wicked Destroyed
Wicked Forever(figurative) can = Wicked Destroyed
You only have three choices;
1. All the wicked forever verses are literally right, and destroyed is wrong.
or
2. All the wicked destroyed verses are literally right, and forever is wrong.
or
3. Forever Wicked is figurative, and the whole Bible is right.
how many verses will it take to show you that those words were used both literally and figuratively? And how many verses do you need that tell us the wicked are DESTROYED, before you realize which manner it must be using whn speaking of the wicked. It is very simple math.
Wicked Forever(literal) cannot = Wicked Destroyed
Wicked Forever(figurative) can = Wicked Destroyed
You only have three choices;
1. All the wicked forever verses are literally right, and destroyed is wrong.
or
2. All the wicked destroyed verses are literally right, and forever is wrong.
or
3. Forever Wicked is figurative, and the whole Bible is right.
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Adam,
Does your doctrine also teach that hell is not real? I spoke to someone here on this forum b4 who preached this and things like eternal punishment not being eternal -- it was as weird as it could get. What denomination are you from? Does the teaching come from your leaders? Pastors?
Does your doctrine also teach that hell is not real? I spoke to someone here on this forum b4 who preached this and things like eternal punishment not being eternal -- it was as weird as it could get. What denomination are you from? Does the teaching come from your leaders? Pastors?
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I have already provided you a link that provides several as well as completely refutes your position in a way I can't.
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adam332
Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t
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No link can refute the Bibles position.
If they have some verses over there, then copy and paste them, because I thought I was debating with CIR not a link.
Maybe, I'm wrong but it was you who had been making the claims, wasn't it? Well I don't care where you come up with the verses, or if your not as knowledgable as you led on. But, if you think you know a verse, you saw a verse, someone else has a verse or whatever, then present it here on this thread with yours or anyone elses comments on it and I will respond. If I wanted a link to someones eternal separation doctrines I can find thousands with a click of my mouse, but I came here for a discussion. Which is where I found you discussing it and claiming you had scripture. If you don't have any say so if you do post it, please and for the fifth time.
If they have some verses over there, then copy and paste them, because I thought I was debating with CIR not a link.
Maybe, I'm wrong but it was you who had been making the claims, wasn't it? Well I don't care where you come up with the verses, or if your not as knowledgable as you led on. But, if you think you know a verse, you saw a verse, someone else has a verse or whatever, then present it here on this thread with yours or anyone elses comments on it and I will respond. If I wanted a link to someones eternal separation doctrines I can find thousands with a click of my mouse, but I came here for a discussion. Which is where I found you discussing it and claiming you had scripture. If you don't have any say so if you do post it, please and for the fifth time.
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seangoh
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Just to share my thoughts, first i don't believe in an eternal torment coz it's not in line with God's character of love. But without proving further this, i would like to post 3 verses which deals with the term "everlasting or eternal"
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power 2 Thess 1:8,9
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment Hebrews 6:1,2
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption Hebews 9:12
Destruction-utterly consumed, totally destroyed. Completly annihilated.
The strongest word in the Greek language that could be used for total annihilation is destruction.
What can we say after reading these 3 verses?
The RESULTS of redemption, judgement and destruction will be everlasting.
Ok, just for completeness, i'll bring out John 3:16.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
The bible does not say that the wicked will live immortally in hell. Death is the absence of life. If you're saying they have life in hell, u're saying they have eternal life, not eternal death. You ask anybody what is death, it's the absence of life.
This verse shows a different definition of eternal:
2 Tim 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elects sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
After reading the previous verses, we can say two things on the definition of the words eternal or everlasting.
It can mean end of the age(endless) or it also might mean the RESULTS of it are eternal. The Bible uses some words with multiple meanings such as "forever" too. So it's always good to look at all the scriptures and compare to see whether each interpretation is in harmony with every one of them. Of course i didn't present all the scriptures regarding this topic, but i'm just suggesting a method of bible study.
Sean
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power 2 Thess 1:8,9
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment Hebrews 6:1,2
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption Hebews 9:12
Destruction-utterly consumed, totally destroyed. Completly annihilated.
The strongest word in the Greek language that could be used for total annihilation is destruction.
What can we say after reading these 3 verses?
The RESULTS of redemption, judgement and destruction will be everlasting.
Ok, just for completeness, i'll bring out John 3:16.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
The bible does not say that the wicked will live immortally in hell. Death is the absence of life. If you're saying they have life in hell, u're saying they have eternal life, not eternal death. You ask anybody what is death, it's the absence of life.
This verse shows a different definition of eternal:
2 Tim 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elects sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
After reading the previous verses, we can say two things on the definition of the words eternal or everlasting.
It can mean end of the age(endless) or it also might mean the RESULTS of it are eternal. The Bible uses some words with multiple meanings such as "forever" too. So it's always good to look at all the scriptures and compare to see whether each interpretation is in harmony with every one of them. Of course i didn't present all the scriptures regarding this topic, but i'm just suggesting a method of bible study.
Sean
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adam332
Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t
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Andrew,
yes I believe hell is real. Or at least some of the modern day connatations of it. It is more accurately described as a overused term made popular by the KJV.
As I'm sure you know the word hell is not used so many times in other versions. What I believe in, as what most refer to as hell, is the second death, the lake of fire, etc.... The lake of fire is not a place but a time that occurs after the millennium. A time when "fire comes down from God out of heaven and destroys them(wicked)". A fire that will destroy both the body and soul.
But, don't get me wrong some of the usages of hell really did refer to a place of burning, but for the most part those four words that the KJV translators all saw fit to translate as one word, did us a dis-service. You see all 4 of those words have there own separate and unique definitions and have implied meaning according to the context used. For instance, the Lord has been compared to a thief 7 times, right?
Well, a thief has many connatations that do not apply to Christ's character. Yet we have no problems distinguishing these negative attributes that obviously do not fit the context of the passage. We allow for the context to decide what comparative definition is being applied. So when we see Christ referred to as a thief in context of the second coming, we know that it does not mean he'll return as a sneaky sinner, but instead that He'll come unexpectadly and without warning.
Hades for instance is the name of a Greek mythological god,(aka pluto), and his kingdom of the dead was named after him. This does not mean the scripture endorse the belief of a pagan god or his alleged kingdom, any more than it literally endorsed other such origins such as sheol, gehenna, tartarus. But the fact is that the people of history have used and understood these words and what all they implied, and could discern from context what was being definitively compared.
Again, another example....
If we were looking on the ground for a lost contact lens and you find it and I tell you.... "Your like an eagle." How would you discern that? Would you think that I meant you had an "eagle eye" because you were able to spot that context lens.? Well, how do you think that my comment might be discerned a 1000 yrs from now? Or a thousand yrs ago? Even though you and I and a million others might realize that I was comparing your eye to that of an eagles without even mentioning "eye", does not mean that everyone from everytime is as familiar with that particular connatation by definitive comparison. This is why we must examine each one of these words separately and in their context and notice all the different definitions and beliefs that surrounded these words.
Anyway, as for my denom. I have none, simply a member of the body.
As for my pastor or teachers or where I get my doctrines. From me and the word of God in my spare room by myself. I was raised an atheist by two atheists. I converted at age thirty(five yrs ago). Prior to which I had never read the Bible nor attended church, nor were friends with any who did. Technically I did go to three weddings in churches and one evening Catholic communion service with a girlfriend when I was 18. I have been studying for all five yrs, and somewhat obsesively for the last two. I write my own Bible studies on any subject that interests me. I have probably more studies begun than finished, simply because when I search the Bible I'm like a kid at a toy store. I keep seeing something else I want to look at etc.... So I jot down the gist of my finding in hopes that someday I'll be able to have the time to return and put it all down on paper. I have went to painstaking lengths to avoid "learned doctrines" or "taught tradition". I thanjk the Lord for the fact that I was virtually a clean slate with no denominational influeneces.
yes I believe hell is real. Or at least some of the modern day connatations of it. It is more accurately described as a overused term made popular by the KJV.
As I'm sure you know the word hell is not used so many times in other versions. What I believe in, as what most refer to as hell, is the second death, the lake of fire, etc.... The lake of fire is not a place but a time that occurs after the millennium. A time when "fire comes down from God out of heaven and destroys them(wicked)". A fire that will destroy both the body and soul.
But, don't get me wrong some of the usages of hell really did refer to a place of burning, but for the most part those four words that the KJV translators all saw fit to translate as one word, did us a dis-service. You see all 4 of those words have there own separate and unique definitions and have implied meaning according to the context used. For instance, the Lord has been compared to a thief 7 times, right?
Well, a thief has many connatations that do not apply to Christ's character. Yet we have no problems distinguishing these negative attributes that obviously do not fit the context of the passage. We allow for the context to decide what comparative definition is being applied. So when we see Christ referred to as a thief in context of the second coming, we know that it does not mean he'll return as a sneaky sinner, but instead that He'll come unexpectadly and without warning.
Hades for instance is the name of a Greek mythological god,(aka pluto), and his kingdom of the dead was named after him. This does not mean the scripture endorse the belief of a pagan god or his alleged kingdom, any more than it literally endorsed other such origins such as sheol, gehenna, tartarus. But the fact is that the people of history have used and understood these words and what all they implied, and could discern from context what was being definitively compared.
Again, another example....
If we were looking on the ground for a lost contact lens and you find it and I tell you.... "Your like an eagle." How would you discern that? Would you think that I meant you had an "eagle eye" because you were able to spot that context lens.? Well, how do you think that my comment might be discerned a 1000 yrs from now? Or a thousand yrs ago? Even though you and I and a million others might realize that I was comparing your eye to that of an eagles without even mentioning "eye", does not mean that everyone from everytime is as familiar with that particular connatation by definitive comparison. This is why we must examine each one of these words separately and in their context and notice all the different definitions and beliefs that surrounded these words.
Anyway, as for my denom. I have none, simply a member of the body.
As for my pastor or teachers or where I get my doctrines. From me and the word of God in my spare room by myself. I was raised an atheist by two atheists. I converted at age thirty(five yrs ago). Prior to which I had never read the Bible nor attended church, nor were friends with any who did. Technically I did go to three weddings in churches and one evening Catholic communion service with a girlfriend when I was 18. I have been studying for all five yrs, and somewhat obsesively for the last two. I write my own Bible studies on any subject that interests me. I have probably more studies begun than finished, simply because when I search the Bible I'm like a kid at a toy store. I keep seeing something else I want to look at etc.... So I jot down the gist of my finding in hopes that someday I'll be able to have the time to return and put it all down on paper. I have went to painstaking lengths to avoid "learned doctrines" or "taught tradition". I thanjk the Lord for the fact that I was virtually a clean slate with no denominational influeneces.
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adam332
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CIR,
got bored and couldn't help myself, I just had to see this amazing link that supplied all these verses that tell us the ultimate fate of the sinner is eternal separation. The truth is that writer did not even claim to post such a verse, he talked about everything but that. Where is one verse in that study that shows the ultimate fate of the sinner to be eternal separation. He tells you why in some of the most nonsensical comments I've seen, especially what he says about Christ being risen from the dead...
"Was it annihilation? Absolutely not. If it were, Jesus would not be risen from the dead! This entire faith, Christianity, would be a sham, a fraud, and a lie. Death would not be conquered. The sting would still be there. What is the punishment for sin, you ask? Very simple "
Your kidding right.....? Christ is spiritual and if you are spitritual then you are raised spotless with Him. And recieve the gift of living forever. Those who aren't of Christ and who are not spiritual do not get to live they get death. Death is temporary and life is eternal for the faithful. But, Life is temporary and death is eternal for the unfaithful.
That link was a joke and refuted absolutely nothing. He never says anything tangible. He make wild claims and gives no scripture and then starts on a tangent about his claims and gives scripture for that instead.
Besides that the very premise of this discussion is the penalty and what Christ payed and what the sinner must pay if Christ doesn't. And this writer denies the very scripture that tells him what that is. He also denies the scripture that man can pay for his own sin with his own death. It is blood and death that redeems us from sin and nothing else. Everyone has two choices, let Christs' blood and death serve as your penalty or pay up yourself.
I am still waiting for a verse, just one verse.......
got bored and couldn't help myself, I just had to see this amazing link that supplied all these verses that tell us the ultimate fate of the sinner is eternal separation. The truth is that writer did not even claim to post such a verse, he talked about everything but that. Where is one verse in that study that shows the ultimate fate of the sinner to be eternal separation. He tells you why in some of the most nonsensical comments I've seen, especially what he says about Christ being risen from the dead...
"Was it annihilation? Absolutely not. If it were, Jesus would not be risen from the dead! This entire faith, Christianity, would be a sham, a fraud, and a lie. Death would not be conquered. The sting would still be there. What is the punishment for sin, you ask? Very simple "
Your kidding right.....? Christ is spiritual and if you are spitritual then you are raised spotless with Him. And recieve the gift of living forever. Those who aren't of Christ and who are not spiritual do not get to live they get death. Death is temporary and life is eternal for the faithful. But, Life is temporary and death is eternal for the unfaithful.
That link was a joke and refuted absolutely nothing. He never says anything tangible. He make wild claims and gives no scripture and then starts on a tangent about his claims and gives scripture for that instead.
Besides that the very premise of this discussion is the penalty and what Christ payed and what the sinner must pay if Christ doesn't. And this writer denies the very scripture that tells him what that is. He also denies the scripture that man can pay for his own sin with his own death. It is blood and death that redeems us from sin and nothing else. Everyone has two choices, let Christs' blood and death serve as your penalty or pay up yourself.
I am still waiting for a verse, just one verse.......
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Hi All,
The doctrine of an un-ending Hell is not Biblical.
Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
The doctrine of an un-ending Hell is not Biblical.
Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
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john14_20
...you in me and I in you
Hi all - I must agree with truthseeker. The doctrine of never ending torture is not only un-Biblical, it is also completely absurd!
No-one can ask me to believe in a compassionate, loving God, whom I should I call 'Father' (the Aramaic word 'Abba' actually means 'Daddy'), who will send me to burn forever if I get it wrong. A kind, loving God, the same as a kind and loving earthly father, will intruct and nuture, and punish when necessary. But the punishment is always and only ever with a view to correction and growth, never for the sake of punishment itself.
One may choose to believe in an ogre god who would behave in this disgraceful manner, and I won't give them a hard time for it, but I will give anyone a hard time for trying to tell me that this god is also our kind, loving, Heavenly Father!
Blessings to all, Peter.
No-one can ask me to believe in a compassionate, loving God, whom I should I call 'Father' (the Aramaic word 'Abba' actually means 'Daddy'), who will send me to burn forever if I get it wrong. A kind, loving God, the same as a kind and loving earthly father, will intruct and nuture, and punish when necessary. But the punishment is always and only ever with a view to correction and growth, never for the sake of punishment itself.
One may choose to believe in an ogre god who would behave in this disgraceful manner, and I won't give them a hard time for it, but I will give anyone a hard time for trying to tell me that this god is also our kind, loving, Heavenly Father!
Blessings to all, Peter.
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