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Will Sinners Burn Forever?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by thetruthseeker, Oct 9, 2002.

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  1. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
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    Does the Bible say that sinners will burn throughout eternity?
     
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  2. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Yes, sinners will burn "for ever," but not throughout eternity.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  3. I can eat 50 eggs

    I can eat 50 eggs what we have here is a failure to communicate

    +16
    Christian
    Sinners? no, everyone is a sinner.
     
  4. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi 50 eggs,

    Will the un-converted (wicked, unrepentant) burn in hell throughout eternity?

    Thanks.
    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  5. I can eat 50 eggs

    I can eat 50 eggs what we have here is a failure to communicate

    +16
    Christian
    I'm not gonna swear one way or the other. From my understanding, yes, but my thoughts are not His thoughts, and my ways are not His ways.
     
  6. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    What does this mean?  Is not forever eternity? Or is eternity longer than for now on. 
     
  7. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Blackhawk,

    Jesus is a God of mercy, a God of love, a God of longsuffering. The list goes on... It not within Jesus' character to torcher people throughout eternity, in hell, for sins that they comitted within 70 years. Jesus is definately more just than we are. There is no need to be scared into the church. If we go to church, we should go because we love Jesus and for nothing less than that. It is a relationship with Christ that saves--not going through the motions.

    Forever is not necessarily eternity according to the Bible. The context must always be studied closely to determine the full meaning.

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    The original Greek word for "ever " is "aion ." This means "an age ." So forever means "for an age " or for a duration . That age can be anything. The word "age" is like the word "tall," "large," or "long."

    The words "for ever" is used 56 times in the Bible for things that have already passed or ended.

    For example, Hannah promised the Lord that she would give Samuel for the service of the Lord "for ever."

    1 Samuel 1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever .

    However, "for ever" in this case means "as long as he liveth" (until Samuel dies).

    1 Samuel 1:28 Therefore also I have lent him to the LORD; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the LORD. And he worshipped the LORD there.

    According to the Bible, hell fire will last as long as it takes to destroy sinners and then it will go out.

    Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up , saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch . _But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.


    Isaiah 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it .

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .

    Sinners will die. Immortality will be given to the saved saints. This is Biblical.

    The idea of an un-ending hell is pagan in origin. Its origin is from the Catholic Church which got it from the pagan Greeks.

    Thanks for your reply, Blackhawk.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  8. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Eternity and hell are Greek words, and so we need to be careful that we take on Bible definitions for them.

    When Jesus uses the Greek word "geenna", this is a referance to what Isaiah said:

    Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    This takes place during the 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth. Every year each nation will have to send a representive to Jerusalem. If they do not send a representive, God will not send them rain.

    A part of what they will do, is go outside of the city, to the garbage dump, where they will look upon the body's of those who have rebelled against God. There will be a very visable display there of the carcase of their body.

    The body came from the earth, and the body of the unsaved will return to the earth. When God removes the spirit or the "breath" of life from them.  

    Eccles. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    At the resurrection of the dead, their soul returns to God and is cast into the lake of fire. The Bible calls this the second death.

    Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Those who are saved, God will raise their body again up out of the dust. They then shall receive a glorified body.

    1 Cor. 15:42
        So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

    Philip. 3:21a
        who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body,


    I have never found any referance to what John the beloved is talking about: The Second Death. I have seen a bottomless pit, but I have never seen a lake of fire.



     


     
     
  9. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1


    Hi JohnR7,

    The "worm shall not die" means that no one will escape death in hell.

    Yes, this reference is correct. However, notice how the fire will not be quenched. This means that mortals will not be able to put it out. The fire will go out. For example, consider Sodom and Gomorrha. The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrha are an example of what happens when people are punished with "eternal fire ."


    Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example , suffering the vengeance of eternal fire .


    2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

    Sodom and Gomorrha were punished with eternal fire yet the fire is not burning today. Evidently, the effect of the fire was eternal, not the duration.

    The Bible shows that the lost will be "burned up," not burning throughout eternity.

    Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire .

    Where did you get the representative scenerio?

    At the Second Coming of Jesus the righteous will be meet Jesus in the air. We will go to heaven. The wicked will remain on earth (earth after the plagues is "the bottomless pit") until the 1000 years is over.

    The Bible says:

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Jeremiah 25:33,34 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth : they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes , ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.

    Revalation 20:4,5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . This is the first resurrection.


    This is not a literal city dump as in the old time of Jerusalem this is referring to the hell that comes after the Second Coming of Jesus-- "geena "


    The phrase "Second Death" means what is says. Sinners will no longer exist after they are punished with eternal fire. This death will be an un-ending death. There will not be a resurrection out of it.

    Thanks for your reply, JohnR7.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  10. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Uh, no, the Catholic Church got it from Jesus Christ. You can reinterpret Jesus' words all you want, but the Church has about 2,000 more years of experience than you do.

    --

    Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

    Matt. 25:46 - Jesus says, "they will go away into eternal punishment" which is in reference to this eternal fire.

    Mark 9:47-48 - Jesus refers to hell as where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. It lasts forever.
     
  11. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1


    Hi s0uljah,

    Please, FULLY , read my posts before commenting.

    I'm sorry to have to say this but the Catholic Church is the Apostate Church. It is filled with pagan doctrines . Some have actually infiltrated many mainline Protestant churches. Mixing pagan and Christian doctrines and practices together is--iniquity (mystery of iniquity ). I can name many such doctrines. However, that is definately another story or at least another thread in itself. Please note that I am not attacking you or any other individual in the Catholic Church but the Vatican system. There are many good, wonderful, kind people in the Catholic Church. My parents were ONCE Catholics. My father was even an alter boy.

    About 2000 years ago, Paul saw the beginnings of the Vatican (an imposter) in his day. He knew that they would deceive many after his departing (death):

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition ; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work : only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming :

    Acts 20:28-31 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock . Also of your own selves shall men arise , speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them . Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.



    Here is the verse verbatim.

    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels:

    See the responses below.

    Here is the verse verbatim. It says that sinners will go away into everlasting punishment not everlasting punishing . There is definately a difference.

    Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment : but the righteous into life eternal.



    Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not , and the fire is not quenched .


    The "worm dieth not" refers to the fact that no sinner will survive hell. This is symbolic language. Notice how verses 43,45 and 47 are not literal. Does Jesus expect us to mutilate ourselves to be saved? No. Jesus is basically saying that we should not allow anything to keep us from making it to heaven.

    Notice the following verses:

    Jeremiah 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day ; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched .

    Jeremiah 52:12,13 Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem, And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire :

    Jeremiah 17:27 was fulfilled in Jeremiah 52:12,13. The fire that "shall not be quenched " burned up the palaces in Jerusalem.

    Is that fire still burning today? No. Humans were not able to quench the fire, however, the fire eventually went out.

    Was Jesus or Satan right about sin? The very first lie told here on earth was that we would not die if we disobeyed Jesus. This is the same lie (false doctrine) that has infiltrated our Protestant churches. Only the righteous will have un-ending life.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death ; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die :

    Again, this false doctrine has its source in the Catholic Church which got it from the pagan Greeks (and many other practices at that). This false doctrine is called "Greek Dualism."

    Thanks for your response, s0uljah.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  12. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Zech. 14:16-17
        And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [17] And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

    It is a little difficult to believe that everyone from every family will need to go to Jerusalem every year. Rather it is more reasonable that each family will send a representive.

    My family I am told has traced the genology back to the Pilgrams and the Mayflower compact. The building I am in right now, has been in the family for 50 years and is right next door to a Pilgram church.

    We go to heaven for about 7 years, for the duration of the great tribulation period. Then we return to earth with Jesus to rule and reign with Him.
     
  13. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Nope. There are sinners and there are saints. Sheep and goats. Believers or heathens.

    Everybody is one or the other, no one can be both. You are either justified by Christ or you aren't.
     
  14. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    thetruthseeker-

    I would invite you to post your information about the Whore of Babylon in the Catholic Forum on this site. Let's see how long you last.
     
  15. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi S0uljah,

    You don't sound like you are fallowing Peter's advise.

    2 Peter 1:5-11 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance ; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness ; and to brotherly kindness charity . For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    I love you with a brotherly love. This is why I must tell the truth with as much tact as I can--given the subject. However, I will not be distracted. This thread is about hell--according to the Bible only..

    Please comment on my posts in regard to the Bible's definition of hell.

    Thanks for your reply, s0uljah.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  16. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Your right, I am not doing it as well as I could. If you are truly a "truth seeker" why wont you reveal this stuff to the Catholics on here for review? Dont you want to know the "truth?" Or if you feel you have it, shouldnt you "save" the Catholics that are going to Hell? Dont you love us? :scratch:
     
  17. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1


    Hi JohnR7,

    Hell takes place after the Second Coming.

    Zechariah 14:16,17 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles . And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.


    Zechariah 14:16-17 does not apply to hell because this ceremonial law (ordinance) of the feast of the tabernacle was nailed to the cross at Jesus' death. --1 Colossians 2:14

    That's great.


    This is the Catholic (Futurist) view of the Rapture or the Second Coming. The Bible does not support this.

    You see, back in the 1500s, Protestants understood the Papacy to be the Antichrist and the Catholic Church to be the beast. For example, Martin Luther called the Papacy, and Catholic Church by those names. Martin Luther and other reformers had a Historicist or Historical view of prophecy. The Catholic's response to this Historicist view was a newly invented view on Biblical prophecy--Futurism . The Futuristic view of Biblical prophecy was invented by a Catholic Jesuit named Francisco Ribera (1537-1591).

    Most American Protestants, in the beginning, believed in Historical Bible prophecy but the Futuristic view of Bible prophecy eventually became popular.

    Thanks for your reply, JohnR7.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  18. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    What do you feel that Bible supports?
     
  19. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi JohnR7,

    I believe that the Bible supports the Historical or Historicist view of Bible prophecy. The same view that Martin Luther, Isaac Newton, etc... had.

    Thanks, JohnR7.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  20. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi JohnR7.

    I will give more detail on this in a little while.

    The confusion of the Futurist view of prophecy centers on the interpretation of Daniel 9 . You will find that the proper interpretation of Daniel 9 will clear up things. You will find that the Futurist view is grossly distorted and not consistant with the whole Bible.

    Thanks.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
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