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Will Sinners Burn Forever?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by thetruthseeker, Oct 9, 2002.

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  1. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

    +435
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    If you are going to make claims such as "back in the 1500s the protestants believed this or that" or "Martin Luther said this or that" or "early American Christians believed this or that" - then I suggest you back up your information with a credible source. With no source your historical views are your opinions and nothing else - and what does any of this have to do with hell?
     
  2. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Behe,

    Please have a look at the following links below. These are just a few links of evidence. There are countless more. You can find more evidence by doing a little research on the Reformation or Protestant history. Read the "Foxe's Book of Martyrs."

    Reformers believed that the Papacy was the Antichrist:

    The Reformers View of the Antichrist

    Martin Luther's View of the Antichrist

    The Reformers had a Historical view of Bible prophecy:

    Historical View of Bible Prophecy

    Isaac Newton's View of Bible Prophecy

    The understanding of hell and the immortal soul is different in each view of Bible prophecy.

    I will elaborate on Daniel 9 tonight.

    Thanks.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  3. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Behe,

    Please have a look at the following links below. These are just a few links of evidence. There are countless more. You can find more evidence by doing a little research on the Reformation or Protestant history. Read the "Foxe's Book of Martyrs."

    Reformers believed that the Papacy was the Antichrist:

    The Reformers View of the Antichrist

    Martin Luther's View of the Antichrist

    The Reformers had a Historical view of Bible prophecy:

    Historical View of Bible Prophecy

    Isaac Newton's View of Bible Prophecy

    The understanding of hell and the immortal soul is different in each view of Bible prophecy.

    I will elaborate on Daniel 9 tomorrow.

    Thanks.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  4. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    If Luther thought the Pope was the AntiChrist, why would he become a Catholic Monk in the first place. Isnt it more reasonable to conclude that he used this stance as fuel in his movement against the power of the Pope?

    It is not secret that the five Popes leading up to the reformation were pathetic. However, as a Catholic, Luther should have known the difference between infallibility and impeccability.
     
  5. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    Let me know how this debate comes out, will you? Because if it turns out sinners burn forever it could save me a fortune on Duraflame logs.

    (This post is a joke. It is only a joke. If this had been a serious post, you would have been instructed to read it more carefully. We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.)
     
  6. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi JohnR7,

    I've really been tied up entertaining my In-laws for the last 4 days. Does anyone want me to expand on the following?

    The Futurist view of Daniel 9:24-27 depicts the first coming of Jesus, His baptism and then jumps past 2000 years into the future and speaks of the Antichrist causing the oblation (sacrifical system) to cease--this is out of context. This theory was created by Catholics to remove the title or lable of Antichrist from the Papacy and place it on a future person--a distraction.

    The Historicist views Daniel 9:24-27 as the depiction of the first coming of Jesus (born in Bethlehem), His baptism, and His crucifixion. All of it speaks of Jesus Christ--no Antichrist. This can be proven historically.

    Thanks.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  7. Claudia

    Claudia New Member

    34
    +0
    James 1:15  "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

    Romans 6:23   "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    ...the wages or end result of sin is DEATH, not eternal life in hell. Only those who are saved are given eternal life. Thus we read in Revelation 21:8  "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

    ...Once again, Hellfire results in death.

    -----------------

     

    Malachi 4:1-3  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    This is why Jesus talked about DESTROYING the soul and body in hell...

    Matthew 10:28   And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

     

    In Revelation 20:10 when the Bible talks about the Devil being cast into the lake of fire, what actually happens to the wicked and to the Devil at the end of it? Most think that the Devil sits in control of "Hell" and he tortures the wicked... as if God rewards the Devil and allows him to have a good time punishing sinners, or else they think the Devil is cast into the lask of fire and burns forever and ever... but what does the Bible say?

    Rev 20:9,10   " And they (the wicked) went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."  Ezekiel 28:18   "...I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

     

    The Bible says that fire comes down and devours the wicked and that it brings them and the Devil to ashes...

     

    Psalm 37:9-11  "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."

     

    Jude 6,7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

    Jude 6,7 tells about Sodom and Gamorrah being destroyed by "everlasting fire" and that the fire turned them into "ashes" ...as a warning to "those that after should live ungodly" 2 Peter 2:6. Sodom and Gammorah are not burning today... Likewise everlasting fire will go out after the wicked are burned up and turned to ashes Malachi 4:3

        The wicked...

     

    "shall perish" Psalm 37:20

    "suffer destruction"  Job 21:30

    "be burned up"  Malachi 4:1

    "be destroyed together"   Psalm 37:38

    "consume away"  Psalm 37:20

    "fire will devour them"   Psalm 21:9

    2 Peter 3:10  Hellfire will be as big as the earth because the earth will be on fire... 2 Peter 3:10  "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."  " Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner."   Proverbs 11:31

     

    The term "for ever" as used in the Bible, simply means a period of time, either limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in reference to things that have already ended. For instance, in Jonah 2:6 "for ever" means 3 days and 3 nights... (also see Jonah 1:17) In Deuteronomy 23:3 forever means 10 generations... In the case of mean "for ever" means as long as he lives or "until death" (see ISamuel 1:22,28; Exodus21:6; Psalm 48:14)The wicked burn in the fire till death or as long as they live.

    Claudia

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
     
  8. Claudia

    Claudia New Member

    34
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    "I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin.

    The doctrine of eternal torment came from paganism...

    The advancing centuries witnessed a constant increase of error in the doctrines put forth from Rome. Even before the establishment of the papacy the teachings of heathen philosophers had received attention and exerted an influence in the church. Many who professed conversion still clung to the tenets of their pagan philosophy, and not only continued its study themselves, but urged it upon others as a means of extending their influence among the heathen. Serious errors were thus introduced into the Christian faith. Prominent among these was the belief in man's natural immortality and his consciousness in death. This doctrine laid the foundation upon which Rome established the invocation of saints and the adoration of the Virgin Mary. From this sprang also the heresy of eternal torment for the finally impenitent, which was early incorporated into the papal faith.

    Then the way was prepared for the introduction of still another invention of paganism, which Rome named purgatory, and employed to terrify the credulous and superstitious multitudes. By this heresy is affirmed the existence of a place of torment, in which the souls of such as have not merited eternal damnation are to suffer punishment for their sins, and from which, when freed from impurity, they are admitted to heaven.

    Still another fabrication was needed to enable Rome to profit by the fears and the vices of her adherents. This was supplied by the doctrine of indulgences. Full remission of sins, past, present, and future, and release from all the pains and penalties incurred, were promised to all who would enlist in the pontiff's wars to extend his temporal dominion, to punish his enemies, or to exterminate those who dared deny his spiritual supremacy. The people were also taught that by the payment of money to the church they might free themselves from sin, and also release the souls of their deceased friends who were confined in the tormenting flames. By such means did Rome fill her coffers and sustain the magnificence, luxury, and vice of the pretended representatives of Him who had not where to lay His head.

    Terror was used by the Church in a multitude of ways... the sad part is what this has done to people's view of God and of Christianity. Atheists thus have something to beat Christians over the head with, in claiming that our God is a cruel God, for tormenting sinners eternally in Hell... when this doctrine of eternal torment isn't even Biblical.
     
  9. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    quote:Yes, sinners will burn "for ever," but not throughout eternity.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker"

    then the righteous may not be righteous forever either. ie the effectiveness of Jesus' blood 'wears out' after a period.
     
  10. cir

    cir New Member

    16
    +0
    Non-Denom
    No. :)
     
  11. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
    Christian
    Married
    Who were the ones to "shut up the gates of heaven"? Answer: The scribes and Pharisees.
     
  12. coastie

    coastie Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

    +45
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Dr. D. James Kennedy in his book Why I Believe he recounts an interview with a man who had an "after death experience" (keep in mind that this man was not a Christian and knew very little about the Bible.

    I really like Dr. Kennedy and his ministry. He has done quite a few interviews that were very similar to this one.

    Maybe flames are a description of the intense pain because I can think of no pain worse than burning alive.

    Zach
     
  13. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Coastie,

    Let's not go by heresy, but the Bible. Flames are flames. Let's test the spirit.

    My mother once experienced a deep comma that lasted about 4 days. This happened after child birth (my older sister). She experienced being in nothingness while from time to time hearing the people who where caring for her ailment. Physical trauma affects people differently. Many people are affected mentally at least temporarily by intense physical trauma.

    Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish .

    Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD , neither any that go down into silence.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. This does not distinguish between the good or the bad.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing , neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish , and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away .

    Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up , saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch .

    The dead do not know anything. However, the dead will be resurrected at Jesus' second coming. It will not be a secret rapture as the Futurist view of prophecy states . All eyes will see Him at His second coming.

    Matthew 24:25-27 Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers ; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout , with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first : Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    2 Peter 3:10-12 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise , and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up . Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him , and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Thanks for your reply, Coastie.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  14. cir

    cir New Member

    16
    +0
    Non-Denom
    coastie,

    I can, separation from God Himself:

    These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power -2 Thess 1:9(NKJV)
     
  15. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi All,

    Any thoughts on this topic?

    Thanks.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  16. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Thoughts on your anti-Catholicism, or the topic of the thread?

    -Chris
     
  17. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Kern,

    Thoughts on this thread. Thoughts on anti-apostacy.

    My parents where once Catholics. My father was even an alter boy. This is not personal. The truth, however, must be known.

    Thoroughly research the truth and let me know what you think. This is not about idealogy but all about the truth and nothing but the truth.

    Please, weigh the Biblical and historical evidence.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  18. Sharky

    Sharky Rockin dude!

    +154
    Christian
    Ahem. Back on topic...

    We are all sinners who deserve to burn in hell. But guess what? God never wanted that for us. He sent Jesus down to save us. Took all our sins and sent them down to hell. And really Jesus does want to be your best friend. He saved you so that you may have salvation.
     
  19. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Sharky,

    Thanks, Sharky.

    This is the truth. We are all saved by grace through faith. However, remember, faith with out works is dead.

    James 2:26 _For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    We fool ourselves if we think that we can intentially ignore the word of God and be allowed into heaven.

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. _Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? _And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Iniquity is lawlessness. Living outside of the 10 Commandments (the will of the Father, and a summary of all moral laws) of Jesus.

    Back to Hell...

    Only those who keep the 10 Commandments of Jesus through the help of the Holy Spirit not see Hell but Heaven.

    Revelation 21:7,8 _He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Revelation 22:14 _Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  20. adam332

    adam332 Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t

    699
    +3
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Cir,
    there is not a single verse in the Bible that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is "separation from God".

    Sharky,
    Jesus did not go down to hell(place of tormented sinners). He went into the grave. And there is nowhere in the scripture that indicates such.
     
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