Originally posted by adam332
Sharky,
Jesus did not go down to hell(place of tormented sinners). He went into the grave. And there is nowhere in the scripture that indicates such.
Originally posted by adam332
Cir,
there is not a single verse in the Bible that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is "separation from God".
Sharky,
Jesus did not go down to hell(place of tormented sinners). He went into the grave. And there is nowhere in the scripture that indicates such.
Originally posted by adam332
Truth seeker,
you said;
Zechariah 14:16-17 does not apply to hell because this ceremonial law (ordinance) of the feast of the tabernacle was nailed to the cross at Jesus' death. --1 Colossians 2:14
Don't mean to nit pick on your thread because I agree with most of your doctrines I've seen, although......this particular commentary of yours is not close to correct.
there is not a single verse in the Bible that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is "separation from God".
So, since the Hebrew and Greek lexicons clearly define these words as having figurative applications as well as literal, and the same goes for their English counterparts, where are you getting your 100% literal ideas from? The scripture doesn't teach these words were used 100% literal, matter of fact I can show you over fifty examples of when they were clearly figurative.Here are a few prime examples.
You see, both "eternal separatism" and "eternal tormentism" is faced with the problem that they teach a concept that is in glaring opposition to one of the most basic Biblical of principals! That is, blood must be shed to atone for sin(Lev. 17:11, Heb. 9:22)!!
The glory in this being; as part of the children of God we can accept Christ' blood on our behalf! Amen!!
Thus allowing our penalty to be payed in full.
And blood MUST BE paid for their sin. Which leaves them with the sad burden of paying with their own blood and death.
He is not eternally separated from God, nor is He eternally tormented.
I never said that Christ wasn't separated from God.
You are treating such passages as though they can only be literal usage.
And, you can pay for your own sin
that is what the lake of fire is for!!!
Also, you asked for chapter and verse about; blood and death must be paid for sin.
No, I asked for chapter and verse for this...
And blood MUST BE paid for their sin. Which leaves them with the sad burden of paying with their own blood and death.
If the ultimate fate of sinners is eternal separation from God, and the believers debt are payed by Christ, this means Christ is eternally separated from God.
See previous post.
You can't have it both ways.
No, you cannot.
Now show me where I am trying to have it both ways.
He can't be separated from God for a day or two and have paid the proper penalty.
He did.
Because according to you the penalty is eternal separation.
According to me?
I said that separation is the penalty, I never specified time.
He came as a physical man, with physical temptations, physical torment, and physical death. He died for our sins!!!
I hope you're not trying to tell me something new...
He was not separated from God for an eternity for your sins.
I did not claim He was.
Your theory would require a rewrite of the scripture.
The fact I write about, or the strawman you write about?
And now, will you please respond to my inquiry. "Show me a single verse that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is separation from God".
You make the claim, but have not produced anything to back it up. I'm waiting.
And what good would it do?
You don't understand the basics, let alone separation. Let's clear up all these misguided prejudices first, okay?
Originally posted by Julie
"Will Sinners Burn Forever?"
Lost sinners will in the Lake of Fire.
Saved sinners won't burn.
this little game of "dodge the issue", is becoming quite old very fast. But, I will go one more round in hopes that you will actually show ANYTHING AT ALL.
BTW; whatever happened to your big claim about your verse? You were talking so authoratively[sic] about it, then I showed you to be utterly and completely out of context. Out of context isn't even the words for it, you weren't even in the right millennium!
The payment for sin is blood and death, period.
Either you believe Christ PAID THAT EXACT PENALTY, or your[sic] wrong.
You say that the penalty Christ paid on our behalf was temporary separation, but the sinners who aren't paid by Christ, you say will receive eternal separation. If Christ paid the penalty and the penalty is eternal separation then you must believe that He is eternally separated from God. But, since you can't claim such, because you know it is unBiblical to say that Christ is eternally separated from God, you use your own logic which you cannot support. This way with your own private interpretation, you can have your cake and eat it too.
That is a lie! Might want to edit your other postings before you try to lie again.
What a crock! Is it fact that....
"the wages of sin is" eternal separation from God?
or
"the soul that sinneth shall surely" be eternally separated from God?
or
"fear not him who is able to destroy the body, but fear Him who is able to" eternally separate you from God?
etc............
And now, will you please respond to my inquiry. "Show me a single verse that indicates the ultimate fate of the sinner is separation from God".
The Greek word for "torment" in this verse is basanizo. Joseph Thayer's lexicon says the word means "to vex with grievous pains...to torment." Likewise, Arndt and Gingrich's lexicon say the word means "to torture, torment."
.....
...the same word for torment is used to speak of the pains of childbirth in Rev12:2. It is also used of the centurion's sick servant being grieveously tormented by palsy in Matt8:6. It is used in Luke 16:23 and 28 to describe the physical suffering of the rich man in Hades.
....
Now the "torment" in Revelation 14 is described as a 'never-ending' torment:
"And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.... There is no rest day or night" (verse11).
The words "for ever and ever" translate an emphatic Greek phrase, 'eis aionas aionon' ("unto the ages of ages"). The twofold use of the term aionas is used in Scripture to emphasize the concept of eternity. And the plural forms ("unto the ages of ages") reinforces the idea of never-ending duration. Lutheran scholar R.C.H. Lenski comments,
The strongest expression for our "forever" is 'eis tous aionan ton aionon', "for the eons of eons"; many eons, each of vast duration , are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by "forever and ever." Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the 'eon', pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones.
[R.C.H Lenski, Revelation (Minneapolis: Augsburb, 1961), p.438.]
This same emphatic contruction is used to speak of the never-ending worshiop of God in Revelation 1:6, 4:9, and 5:3. It is also used to describe the eternality of God in Revelation 4:10 and 10:6. We cannot emphasize too strongly that this phrase shows beyond doubt that the physical torment of the wicked is forever and ever and ever.
[Ron Rhodes, Reasoning from the scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses, pp.336-337]
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