Will Pope Francis Scuttle the Latin Mass when Pope Benedict Dies?

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Vatican rumblings: Pope Francis aiming to end Latin Mass permission

THIS ARTICLE IS LOADED

"Sources in Rome told LifeSite last week that liberal prelates inside the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith were overheard discussing a plan ascribed to the Pope to do away with Pope Benedict’s famous document that gave priests freedom to offer the ancient rite of the Mass."

Then schism is imminent.

 

[Open Heart]

The Church is the New Israel. Whenever the Jews had a chance to follow the Messias, a faithful minority followed after Him. They are the 'remnant'. And Israel was opened to all races and tribes and nations: the New Covenant or New Israel is greater than the old. Modern-day political Israel is just a fabrication from the minds of Secular Zionist Jews, nothing more. It has nothing to do with historical, biblical, or ecclesiastical Israel. This clarifies it for you. Remember, now, in Christ there are neither Jew nor Greek; neither Gentile nor Barbarian. Let's not conflate race or ethnicity with salvation or pre-imminence within the Kingdom of Israel --- David's Kingdom --- upon the throne of which Christ ALONE sits.

You said a lot, but none of it answered my question.

If the Church is Israel, what does that make Israel? Chopped liver?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The way I see it, the Church is spiritually the new Israel, but the land of Israel still has a special significance because it's the Holy Land and the land that God promised to the Hebrews. It's like how Jesus elevated natural marriage to the supernatural, to a sacrament, while the Church still recognizes the validity of natural marriage between non-Christians as long as it meets the conditions for being a valid natural marriage (i.e. one man and one woman, neither of them from a divorce, no incest, etc.). But just as the Old Testament has to be read in light of the New Testament, the Holy Land should not be seen apart from Jesus Christ, the God-Man, who died there on the Cross to atone for the sins of the world and who was raised from the dead on the third day to offer us the opportunity of eternal salvation with Him.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

You said a lot, but none of it answered my question.

If the Church is Israel, what does that make Israel? Chopped liver?

On the waiting list

 

[Virgil the Roman]

You said a lot, but none of it answered my question.

If the Church is Israel, what does that make Israel? Chopped liver?

Yes. Because, it's NOT Israel! The modern-day political "State of Israel" is not part of the historical Church or the Kingdom of ancient Israel. It shares a name with the ancient Judaic Kingdom, nothing more. It's a political state founded upon political expediency. The modern state has NO religious bearing whatsoever. And yes, I answered your questions: I would only ask that you don't let your pride and clinging to your ethnicity close your ears to what I'd written.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Just recall, modern religious Judaism is the sect of the Pharisees: it is Pharisee-ism. It is rooted and bound in a rejection of Jesus Christ. And has no temple, no priesthood, and no central authority/mechanism by which to bind it together. One cannot espouse the modern day Talmudic Jewish religion and save their soul; for they explicitly and implicitly, by doing, so reject Jesus the true Messias. Recall as Scripture says: "Jesus said: 'No man cometh unto the Father but by ME'."

 

[MoonlessNight]

You said a lot, but none of it answered my question.

If the Church is Israel, what does that make Israel? Chopped liver?

I think that Israel (by which I mean those who call themselves Jews today) is currently filling the role of the Prodigal Son. The faithful son in this analogy being the Jews who followed the new covenant and founded/joined the early Church, with those who did not quite literally rejecting their Father and seeking to make their own way with their inheritance.

But this does not mean that Israel is chopped liver. The prodigal's father never ceased loving him, and when he returned there was rejoicing the likes of which had not been seen before in that family. So too will be the rejoicing when any of the lost sheep of Israel return to the Way and the Truth.

 

[Open Heart]

But this does not mean that Israel is chopped liver.

Like Virgil, you haven't answered the Question. If the Church is now Israel, what does that make Israel? Your answer requires some sort of affirmative statement. To say Israel is prodigal is to say what Israel is NOT. Tell me what Israel IS. What are you going to call Israel, since you can no longer call it Israel.

 

[Open Heart]

Yes. Because, it's NOT Israel! The modern-day political "State of Israel" is not part of the historical Church or the Kingdom of ancient Israel.

Why do you keep bringing up the modern State of Isreal? It's not the topic. We are discussing the People of Israel. If you are not going to call us Israel, what are you going to call us as a people, a tribe?

Standing up for the basic dignity of my people is not the same thing as having inordinate pride. Are you now accusing Jews such as myself of conceit simply because we hang on to our tribal name of Israel and do not allow it to be usurped by others?

Notice my quote of Cardinal Lustiger in my Signature area. Is he also a conceited Jew?

 

[MoonlessNight]

Like Virgil, you haven't answered the Question. If the Church is now Israel, what does that make Israel? Your answer requires some sort of affirmative statement. To say Israel is prodigal is to say what Israel is NOT. Tell me what Israel IS. What are you going to call Israel, since you can no longer call it Israel.

What was Israel during the Babylonian captivity?

 

[JackRT]

On the question of the Latin Mass, I see no reason other than nostalgia to retain it. However, having said that, as long as there are some who desire it and priests able to celebrate it I see no immediate necessity to terminate it.

 

[Open Heart]

On the waiting list

For what????

If you aren't going to call Israel "Israel," what will you call the People of Israel?

 

[Open Heart]

but the land of Israel still has a special significance because it's the Holy Land and the land that God promised to the Hebrews.

So is your solution to call the people of Israel "Hebrews?" Do you realize that no one has called us "Hebrews" since Egypt? You and I have a very good relationship. But you need to understand how deeply insulting it is to us as a people that anyone would abscond with our tribal name. It would kind of be like if the United States decided to call itself the New Lakota Nation.

 

[MoonlessNight]

For what????

If you aren't going to call Israel "Israel," what will you call the People of Israel?

Do you call the Samaritans "Israel?" With the effects of 2000 years of diaspora among modern Jews, they likely have about as much claim of descent from Israel (i.e. from Jacob) as most modern Jews.

(And if the whole deal with you going on about this at such a length is because you think that it's insulting to call the Church Israel, you should know that Samaritans believe that it was the Jews in the Babylonian captivity who falsely claim to be "Israel," with the Samaritans being the only true heir. They're wrong, of course, but that's what they believe.)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

For what????

If you aren't going to call Israel "Israel," what will you call the People of Israel?

The wife as in not the bride. One day all will be one

 

[JackRT]

So it seems that if one really wants to respond to an opening post, one had best do it quickly before the thread gets derailed.

 

[Open Heart]

What was Israel during the Babylonian captivity?

Being faithful to God.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Ya stop confusing with details

 

[Open Heart]

Do you call the Samaritans "Israel?" With the effects of 2000 years of diaspora among modern Jews, they likely have about as much claim of descent from Israel (i.e. from Jacob) as most modern Jews.

The Samaritans left the right understanding of Torah, mixing it with Paganism, and not repenting. This is why Ezra and the Jews returning from Babylon would not accept them as fellow Jews. To this day, if they give up their Samaritan religion and return to Judaism, they would be accepted as Children of Israel.

The People of Israel have nothing to do with DNA. We are a tribe, not a race. Jewish identity is received via the mother of the person, or through conversion. A person who has converted is 100% a son of Israel. IOW, there are those who have lots of Ashkenazi DNA or Middle Eastern DNA who are not part of the Tribe, and there are those who have no DNA whatsoever who are 100% part of the People.

 

[Open Heart]

The wife as in not the bride. One day all will be one

Wait... Israel is the wife of God but not the Bride?