Will Jesus physically return to Earth?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Is all apocalyptic literature non literal?

Lots of that in the OT

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

*snip*

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source! That’s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation. That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

 

[Tangible]

Please note that I said that apocalyptic literature communicates literal truth by non-literal means. Apocalyptic literature describes spiritual realities that are hidden from us at present, that we are now incapable of understanding, and does so in terms that we can relate to.

Even those who take a literal view recognize that, as evidenced by the fact that those who subscribe to millennial eschatology are always putting forward new theories about what certain passages 'really mean' or 'refer to'.

For example, this morning my 2 1/2 yr old son asked me why the balloon he got yesterday would no longer "go up in the sky."

Now, the true answer is that overnight much of the helium atoms that offset the weight of the balloon by the low density of the helium gas mixture inside the balloon and gave the balloon its buoyancy slipped through the spaces in the synthetic rubber molecules of the balloon causing the density of the gases remaining inside the balloon to roughly equilibrate with the density of the air outside the balloon thus reducing the buoyancy effect and causing the balloon to "not go up in the sky" any more.

Now, my 2 1/2 year old son doesn't know beans about helium atoms or the porous property of synthetic rubber or the density of gasses, so I had to come up with a way to explain the situation to him in terms that he could grasp, using words that he understood.

I though about it for a second, and then I simply told him that the balloon was tired.

While it is not literally true that a balloon (being an inanimate object) could experience fatigue in the same way as an animal or a person might, the picture created in my son's mind by the word 'tired' effectively communicated to him that because of some reason linked to the passage of time, the balloon was now unable to "go up in the sky".

Non-literal words communicating literal truth.

 

[Hentenza]

Please note that I said that apocalyptic literature communicates literal truth by non-literal means. Apocalyptic literature describes spiritual realities that are hidden from us at present, that we are now incapable of understanding, and does so in terms that we can relate to.

Even those who take a literal view recognize that, as evidenced by the fact that those who subscribe to millennial eschatology are always putting forward new theories about what certain passages 'really mean' or 'refer to'.

For example, this morning my 2 1/2 yr old son asked me why the balloon he got yesterday would no longer "go up in the sky."

Now, the true answer is that overnight much of the helium atoms that offset the weight of the balloon by the low density of the helium gas mixture inside the balloon and gave the balloon its buoyancy slipped through the spaces in the synthetic rubber molecules of the balloon causing the density of the gases remaining inside the balloon to roughly equilibrate with the density of the air outside the balloon thus reducing the buoyancy effect and causing the balloon to "not go up in the sky" any more.

Now, my 2 1/2 year old son doesn't know beans about helium atoms or the porous property of synthetic rubber or the density of gasses, so I had to come up with a way to explain the situation to him in terms that he could grasp, using words that he understood.

I though about it for a second, and then I simply told him that the balloon was tired.

While it is not literally true that a balloon (being an inanimate object) could experience fatigue in the same way as an animal or a person might, the picture created in my son's mind by the word 'tired' effectively communicated to him that because of some reason linked to the passage of time, the balloon was now unable to "go up in the sky".

Non-literal words communicating literal truth.

But that does not answer my question. Is all apocalytic literature non literal?

 

[Tangible]

But that does not answer my question. Is all apocalytic literature non literal?

All is a big word, like never.

Is all apocalyptic literature literal?

Just as we are insufficient to comprehend all of the spiritual truths communicated by apocalyptic scriptures, it has not yet been revealed to us precisely which if any of the words used to describe those spiritual truths may or may not be employed in a literal sense.

The fact that with near uniformity many of the images used in apocalyptic literature are seen by biblical scholars of all Christian traditions to be non-literal (women of both virtue and immorality, dragons, other fantastic animals, etc.) opens the door for interpretation.

Using scripture to interpret scripture, it appears to me that the millennial kingdom referred to in the posts above is one of the non-literal portions, one thousand years being symbolic of an eternity that our minds can apprehend, but not fully comprehend.

 

[Hentenza]

All is a big word, like never.

Is all apocalyptic literature literal?

Just as we are insufficient to comprehend all of the spiritual truths communicated by apocalyptic scriptures, it has not yet been revealed to us precisely which if any of the words used to describe those spiritual truths may or may not be employed in a literal sense.

The fact that with near uniformity many of the images used in apocalyptic literature are seen by biblical scholars of all Christian traditions to be non-literal (women of both virtue and immorality, dragons, other fantastic animals, etc.) opens the door for interpretation.

Using scripture to interpret scripture, it appears to me that the millennial kingdom referred to in the posts above is one of the non-literal portions, one thousand years being symbolic of an eternity that our minds can apprehend, but not fully comprehend.

But you are using the determinant "all" when you don't qualify your statement that apocalypic literature IS non literal. For example, just because biblical text is written in Revelation does not automatically make it non literal. Do you disagree?

 

[Tangible]

Hentenza, it feels like you are trying to hold me to a standard of clarity that is hardly practical. Everyone* makes general, unqualified statements all the time* in normal conversation and informal writings.

You're also apparently trying to use a rhetorical device to cast doubt on my statement by attempting to force me into a position of defending an indefensible position.

I'm obviously not saying that anything written in Revelation or any other apocalyptic portion of scripture is by definition non-literal. No more than you believe that every apocalyptic portion of scripture is by definition literal.

*unqualified statements

 

[Hentenza]

Hentenza, it feels like you are trying to hold me to a standard of clarity that is hardly practical. Everyone* makes general, unqualified statements all the time* in normal conversation and informal writings.

You're also apparently trying to use a rhetorical device to cast doubt on my statement by attempting to force me into a position of defending an indefensible position.

I'm obviously not saying that anything written in Revelation or any other apocalyptic portion of scripture is by definition non-literal. No more than you believe that every apocalyptic portion of scripture is by definition literal.

*unqualified statements

LOL!!! I'm really not trying to pin you down but am simply curious. There are many that interpret scripture outside of a historical-grammatical hermeneutic and use assorted reasons why they do.

For example and without using commentaries (since we can find many representing both positions) tell me why Revelation 20 can not be taken literally.

 

[Stryder06]

That is amusing! They're both symbols!

I guess I'm in the shallow end of the pool with those who believe that the 1000 years is a literal amount of time that we will spend with Christ in heaven.

 

[Tangible]

LOL!!! I'm really not trying to pin you down but am simply curious.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

There are many that interpret scripture outside of a historical-grammatical hermeneutic and use assorted reasons why they do.

The position I'm putting forward is very firmly within the historical-grammatical hermeneutic.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I guess I'm in the shallow end of the pool with those who believe that the 1000 years is a literal amount of time that we will spend with Christ in heaven.

From what I have heard, some view the "devil" already bound

http://www.christianforums.com/t7435928/
Has the Satan/Dragon/Devil been bound Reve

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I don't really understand the poll.

Will Jesus physically return to Earth in the second coming?

-No, he'll meet us in the air
-Yes, he will physically reign on Earth
-Don't know

I believe He will meet us in the air, and that He will also physically reign on earth. Why does believing that He will meet us in the air automatically negate that He will also reign on the earth, as the poll is worded? This doesn't make sense... Scripture teaches both.

 

[Stryder06]

I don't really understand the poll.



I believe He will meet us in the air, and that He will also physically reign on earth. Why does believing that He will meet us in the air automatically negate that He will also reign on the earth, as the poll is worded? This doesn't make sense... Scripture teaches both.

That's why I couldn't vote. I believe Christ will meet us in the air, take us to heaven, then 1k years later, touch down on the earth. He's gonna give Satan a long time out.

 

[Stryder06]

From what I have heard, some view the "devil" already bound

http://www.christianforums.com/t7435928/
Has the Satan/Dragon/Devil been bound Reve

Misapplication of scripture.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

That's why I couldn't vote. I believe Christ will meet us in the air, take us to heaven, then 1k years later, touch down on the earth. He's gonna give Satan a long time out.

Well I'm premil/pretrib so we're kinda on opposite sides of the spectrum. But at least we can agree this poll is faulty.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well I'm premil/pretrib so we're kinda on opposite sides of the spectrum. But at least we can agree this poll is faulty.

How does that differ from Amill/Postmill?

http://www.christianforums.com/t6813701/
Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

 

[Stryder06]

But at least we can agree this poll is faulty.

Works for me

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Misapplication of scripture.

Ya think?

 

[Stryder06]

Ya think?

Sure do. I'd go so far as to say I know

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

Before. I also voted on your poll.

 

[Tangible]

/lobs this into the discussion

There is a common disagreement between millennial and amillennial eschatologists as to the meaning of the word απαντησισ - apantesis in 1 Thess 4:17.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Greek Study Bible)
​

ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῷ ἐσόμεθα.

Apantesis can be translated simply as 'to meet' which gives no clues regarding the question of the Rapture, or it can be translated with a more precise indication of 'go out (from the destination) to meet and accompany someone to their destination.'

Apantesis is Greek, and is usually translated as "meeting" or "official greeting". Power and Sedgwick, The New Sydenham Society's Lexicon of Medicine and The Allied Sciences (1881) (Source)


Grover Gunn, Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (PCA), Jackson, Tennessee. (My highlighting)

1 Thessalonians 4:17 also says that the translated living saints will be caught up together with the resurrected saints in clouds "to meet the Lord in the air." Some argue that the saints will meet Christ in the air because there will be a seven year delay before Christ finishes His descent to earth.

There is a better explanation based on a special meaning of the Greek word here translated "meet." This word "is to be understood as a technical term for a civic custom of antiquity whereby a public welcome was accorded by a city to important visitors" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT),I.3 80). This word was "the ancient expression for the civic welcome of an important visitor or the triumphal entry of a new ruler into the capital city and thus to his reign" (The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology,I.325).

In other words, when a king of antiquity approached his capital city to begin his reign from that location, citizens of the city went out to meet him and to escort him into the city. It was the ancient equivalent of rolling out the red carpet.

This word is found two other places in the New Testament. It occurs in Matthew 25 in the parable of the foolish virgins:

And at midnight a cry was heard: "Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!" Then all the virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. ... the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding and the door was shut. (vv. 6-7,10b).

This word also occurs in Acts 28[:15a] in the account of Paul's arrival at Rome:

And from there, when the brethren heard about us, they came to meet us as far as the Appii Forum and the Three Inns.

A second Greek word (υπαντησι&#962, closely related in both form and sense to the one already mentioned (απαντησι&#962, is also used to refer to this ancient civic custom (TDNT,I.3 80). These two related Greek words are used interchangeably in the parable of the foolish virgins to refer to meeting the bridegroom (Matt. 25:1,6). This second Greek word is used in John 12:12-13 to refer to those in Jerusalem who poured out of the city with palm branches to meet Jesus at His Triumphal Entry into the city:

The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: "Hosanna! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' The King of Israel!"

This Triumphal Entry meeting does appear to be a significant parallel to the Rapture meeting of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In both events, people rush forward to acclaim Jesus as Messianic King and to accompany Him on the remainder of His journey.

Notice that in all of these usages, there is no hint of any significant delay in the journey.

The use of the Greek word translated "meet" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 indicates that the resurrected saints will meet the Lord in the air to honor Him with an escort for the remainder of His descent to earth. Thus, the saints will meet Christ in the air at His Second Coming to give Him the "red carpet treatment" when He comes to earth to renew it and to rule over it for eternity.

New Testament scholar and historian Ben Witherington, quoted here.

This imagery is pursued further in v. 17 with the use of the term apantesin ["to meet"]. For example, Cicero says of Julius Caesar’s victory tour through Italy in 49 b.c.: “Just imagine what a meeting/royal welcome (apantesis) he is receiving from the towns, what honors are paid to him” (Ad. Atticus 8.16.2). This word refers, then, to the actions of the greeting committee as it goes forth from the city to escort the royal person or dignitary into the city for his official visit. “These analogies (especially in association with the term parousia ["presence/arrival"]) suggest the possibility that the Lord is pictured here as escorted the remainder of the journey to earth by his people—both those newly raised from the dead and those remaining alive.

[Church Father John] Chrysostom picked up these nuances quite clearly:

"For when a king drives into a city, those who are honorable go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children indeed, and those who are worthy to be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see him and kiss him; but the housekeepers who have offended him remain within. (Homily 8 on 1 Thessalonians)"

Paul’s Thessalonian audience may have missed some of the allusions to the Old Testament, but they would not have missed the language used here about a royal visit, indeed an imperial visit. They would remember the visit of Pompey and later Octavian and others in the days when Thessalonike could even be talked about by Pompey as the capital in exile.
[From: 1 and 2 Thessalonians : A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary by Ben Witherington III (Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 2006)]