Will Jesus physically return to Earth?

[LiturgyInDMinor]

How does that differ from Amill/Postmill?

http://www.christianforums.com/t6813701/
Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

Don't even put Amill and Postmill in the same sentence.

Postmillers are those "golden-agers" who want to bring in a literal kingdom of GOD here on earth (before Jesus even shows up mind you!)...and that's impossible.

 

[Hentenza]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
The position I'm putting forward is very firmly within the historical-grammatical hermeneutic.

Well, historically the book of revelation is written by John the apostle which also wrote the gospel of John and his epistles. The gospel of John and the epistles of John contain prophetic and apocalyptic text including the return of Jesus. The other gospels, mainly Matthew and Mark get relatively deep in the end of days narratives. So the historical precedent and biblical teaching is that Jesus will return in the end of days and rule over the nations of the world (Matt 25).

Grammatically, chapter 20 of revelation does not include any text that would even hint of allegory. Throughout the bible there are many a prophet that has received God's revelations via visions so it is a device used by God for revelation. As a matter of fact, chapter 20 also includes the narrative of the great white throne judgment and the casting of satan into the lake of fire which is mostly agreed by majority of reputable scholars as something that will happen.

So, the historical-grammatical hermeneutic really points to a literal interpretation rather than an allegorical one. Do you think that many just discard it as allegorical simply because it is included in the apocalyptic book of revelations? I mean, if we accept that Christ is coming at the end of times and that he will reign over all the nations of the world, then accepting that He will reign for 1000 years is more in the realm of probability rather than allegory.

 

[Timothew]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I like these words too, always, not just 1000 years, or 7 years, or 3.5 years, but always.

So Jesus comes on the last day, judges the quick and dead, makes new heaven and earth, and there we are forever. Bing, bang, boom.

 

[Tangible]

But here again, there is no indication that the scenes described in Rev 20 are purely literal. This can certainly be a scene which John describes in literal, material terms things revealed to him by God in an apocalyptic vision, which will have their literal spiritual fulfillment in a spiritual sense, not a material sense.

A great white throne may indeed be a literal throne made of some material substance, located in some specific place and time - or (which I believe is more likely) it may be a representation of a spiritual reality, outside of matter and space and time, in which the literal sovereignty and the literal event of judgment by God is represented by the non-literal image of a throne.

Same with the lake of fire.

It is not necessary for one who holds to a historical-literal hermeneutic to believe that there exists, somewhere in space, a literal, material white throne or a literal, material lake of fire.

But it is necessary for one who holds to a historical-literal hermeneutic to believe that God, in his sovereignty and perfect justice will judge the living and the dead, and that Satan and his angels and all who are not saved will be consigned to a spiritual existence separated from God in torment.

These are spiritual truths, not necessarily material realities.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I like these words too, always, not just 1000 years, or 7 years, or 3.5 years, but always.

So Jesus comes on the last day, judges the quick and dead, makes new heaven and earth, and there we are forever. Bing, bang, boom.

But it doesn't say where we will be with Him. It just says we will always be with Him.

Jhn 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

You can't just pick one. They both stand.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

But here again, there is no indication that the scenes described in Rev 20 are purely literal. This can certainly be a scene which John describes in literal, material terms things revealed to him by God in an apocalyptic vision, which will have their literal spiritual fulfillment in a spiritual sense, not a material sense.

A great white throne may indeed be a literal throne made of some material substance, located in some specific place and time - or (which I believe is more likely) it may be a representation of a spiritual reality, outside of matter and space and time, in which the literal sovereignty and the literal event of judgment by God is represented by the non-literal image of a throne.

Same with the lake of fire.

It is not necessary for one who holds to a historical-literal hermeneutic to believe that there exists, somewhere in space, a literal, material white throne or a literal, material lake of fire.

But it is necessary for one who holds to a historical-literal hermeneutic to believe that God, in his sovereignty and perfect justice will judge the living and the dead, and that Satan and his angels and all who are not saved will be consigned to a spiritual existence separated from God in torment.

These are spiritual truths, not necessarily material realities.

Excellent!

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

The use of the Greek word translated "meet" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 indicates that the resurrected saints will meet the Lord in the air to honor Him with an escort for the remainder of His descent to earth. Thus, the saints will meet Christ in the air at His Second Coming to give Him the "red carpet treatment" when He comes to earth to renew it and to rule over it for eternity.

That doesn't make sense here:

Jhn 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

So, He's preparing the place, He comes back, we all meet Him in the air, and instead of going to the place He prepared, we come back down to earth? Hmm.

Also, I would assume that in your view, we all escort Christ down, and from there, Matthew 25 takes place - the separating of the sheep and the goats? If so, why does He need to separate them? They all just met Him in the air.

 

[Timothew]

But it doesn't say where we will be with Him. It just says we will always be with Him.

Jhn 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

You can't just pick one. They both stand.

I'm not picking just one.

Rev 20:6 is Now. We who are in Christ are blessed and made holy by Him. We have a part in the first resurrection. The first resurrection was Easter. The 2nd death has no power over us! We are priests of God and of Christ. We reign with Him, right now, this age lasts for 1000 years (a term which means "a really really long time"), then Christ returns to receive all of us who are christians to Him and to bring in the place He has prepared.

 

[ebia]

Will his feet actually touch the ground in the second coming?

1 Thess 1:17 states we will be caught up to meet him in the air, Rev 21 seems to support this idea by describing the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven and the bride of Christ (church) is within, and this is after the old heaven and earth had passed away, also backed up in Matt 24:35.

However there are some who suggest Jesus will physically return to Earth. They support this by quoting Zechariah 14:4 which says, "in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives," and Revelation 11:15 which says, 'The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!'"

Does Zechariah 14 and Rev 11 describe the second coming?

When the Emperor comes to visit a city, the local leaders, dignitaries, etc go out to meet him and escort him back into the city. They don't go out to meet him so they can trot off to Rome with him without him ever getting to the city.

In 1 Thess Paul takes that imperial metaphor, and mixes it with clouds/air Jewish metaphor about the Son of Man, to signify what is happening in Jesus return - the King is finally coming to live with his people.

 

[Stryder06]

You know a good understanding of the sanctuary would help clear up some misconceptions about the end times

 

[Tangible]

That doesn't make sense here:

Jhn 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

So, He's preparing the place, He comes back, we all meet Him in the air, and instead of going to the place He prepared, we come back down to earth? Hmm.

Why can't the place he has prepared for us be the new earth?

Also, I would assume that in your view, we all escort Christ down, and from there, Matthew 25 takes place - the separating of the sheep and the goats? If so, why does He need to separate them? They all just met Him in the air.

That's assigning a rather literal meaning of the judgment passage. Are we all going to turn into literal sheep or goats too?

Perhaps the spiritual truth here is that those being saved will be separated from those not being saved, and that they will have radically different destinations.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snips*
/lobs this into the discussion

There is a common disagreement between millennial and amillennial eschatologists as to the meaning of the word απαντησισ - apantesis in 1 Thess 4:17.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Greek Study Bible)​

ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῷ ἐσόμεθα.

Apantesis can be translated simply as 'to meet' which gives no clues regarding the question of the Rapture, or it can be translated with a more precise indication of 'go out (from the destination) to meet and accompany someone to their destination.'

/lobs this into the discussion

What is interesting is that exact word form used for "meet" in 1 Thess is used in Matt 25:6 concerning the "10 virgins"......How kewl is that

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

1 Thess 4:17 thereafter we, the-ones living, the-ones surviving, same time together to them shall be being snatched-away/arpaghsomeqa <726> (5691) in clouds into meeting/apanthsin <529> of the Lord into air/aera <109>, and thus always together to Lord we shall be;

Matt 25:6 Of middle yet of night a cry has occured "behold! the Bridegroom. Be ye coming out! into meeting/apanthsin <529> of Him".
[Genesis 12:29]

apanthsin <529> Used 3 times: Matt 25:6, Acts 28:15, 1 Thess 4:16

You know a good understanding of the sanctuary would help clear up some misconceptions about the end times

 

[Hentenza]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I like these words too, always, not just 1000 years, or 7 years, or 3.5 years, but always.

So Jesus comes on the last day, judges the quick and dead, makes new heaven and earth, and there we are forever. Bing, bang, boom.

To the rapture proponents this verse merely means that the raptured church will be caught up in the air and taken to heaven. Following verses have Jesus coming literally to earth along with the saints (including those that were raptured) and reigning with Jesus for 1000 years until the new earth and the new world where Jesus will finally defeat all of His enemies and turn it over to God. There is no unbroken timeframe where those that are alive in Him are not with Him therefore, the term "always" does apply.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Don't even put Amill and Postmill in the same sentence.

Postmillers are those "golden-agers" who want to bring in a literal kingdom of GOD here on earth (before Jesus even shows up mind you!)...and that's impossible.

Ahhh.....thanks for clarifying that.
I would go with the Premill view for now

 

[Hentenza]

But here again, there is no indication that the scenes described in Rev 20 are purely literal. This can certainly be a scene which John describes in literal, material terms things revealed to him by God in an apocalyptic vision, which will have their literal spiritual fulfillment in a spiritual sense, not a material sense.

A great white throne may indeed be a literal throne made of some material substance, located in some specific place and time - or (which I believe is more likely) it may be a representation of a spiritual reality, outside of matter and space and time, in which the literal sovereignty and the literal event of judgment by God is represented by the non-literal image of a throne.

Same with the lake of fire.

It is not necessary for one who holds to a historical-literal hermeneutic to believe that there exists, somewhere in space, a literal, material white throne or a literal, material lake of fire.

But it is necessary for one who holds to a historical-literal hermeneutic to believe that God, in his sovereignty and perfect justice will judge the living and the dead, and that Satan and his angels and all who are not saved will be consigned to a spiritual existence separated from God in torment.

These are spiritual truths, not necessarily material realities.

Then my brother, you are not using a grammatical-historical hermeneutic but an allegorical one. This is called spiritualizing scripture. I prefer to use a literal reading when indicated and it makes sense. Many use the allegorical hermeneutic when reading Genesis and consequently deny the literal existence of Adam and Eve. I believe that it is a dangerous hermeneutic.

 

[ebia]

That doesn't make sense here:

Jhn 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

So, He's preparing the place, He comes back, we all meet Him in the air, and instead of going to the place He prepared, we come back down to earth? Hmm.

The place he is preparing is the redeemed, renewed, healed, creation. The New Heavens and New Earth.

Also, I would assume that in your view, we all escort Christ down, and from there, Matthew 25 takes place - the separating of the sheep and the goats? If so, why does He need to separate them? They all just met Him in the air.

The meeting in the air isn't literal - it's part of the metaphor (or, rather, two mixed metaphors). As of course separating sheep from goats is also a metaphor.

 

[ebia]

I believe that it is a dangerous hermeneutic.

All hermeneutics are dangerous.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All hermeneutics are dangerous.

As anyone that has visited the Eschatology board would know ehehe

Eschatology - Christian Forums

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

All hermeneutics are dangerous.

How so?

 

[ebia]

How so?

In the context of the assertion to which it was a response, any set rule about how you will interpret all scripture is liable to miss the appropriate interpretational model for at least some texts.