will I ever be safe?

[jc9992]

Hello everyone, i kinda need help with a new issue that's been bothering me.The past couple weeks have been great, ive been strong in my faith and can feel God's presence and for the first time in over a year i was 100% sure that i wasnt condemned despite continuous blasphemous thoughts.

however the past couple of days something has really got me down.After i found hope i got this thought.

"okay so all this time i really didnt commit the unpardonable sin,but what if i do later?"

Im scared of my own mind,im afraid that a thought will come into my head saying the Holy Spirit is evil or that a ton of curse words and renounces against God will breeze through my head(even though all of these have happened a MILLION times before)

im gettin thoughts like,-what if i meant it this time-what if im getting real anger at God-what if im agreeing with the pharisees.its as though no matter what i do im going to live in constant fear of these thoughts.i could be an elect christian,become a pastor,win souls and still live in fear that the next thought is THE thought.

God could be right in front of me and personally tell me im saved and i would still be scared afterwards that the next thought is different than thought number 999,999.

i feel like no matter what happens im still going to live in fear of blasphemy.Has anyone been through this?i need some advice,this is really gettin to me.

 

[marcb]

I completely understand what you are saying. We ocd'ers are control freaks by nature. Since we have had experience of our thoughts that are not in our control, we worry that they might some day manifest in the worst possible way. That is obsessive in itself. I used to worry that someday I would end up with a brain injury that would allow me to only speak blasphemous words. I've met people that, due to their brain damage, can only swear, despite what the intent of their will is to do otherwise.

You are right, we may never live in complete certainty of our ability to avoid such thoughts. However, maybe that will be the one saving grace - that we learn that our salvation is not in our hands (how much less then in our thoughts?) and to truly trust that Jesus is our just judge.

By the Grace of God go I....

 

[PARCmd]

Despite the million times you think of blasphemous words or words renouncing God - he won't condemn you because they are from the OCD.

To blaspheme, you must be rebellious, not heeding the word of God and actively shunning Him. TO renounce God, you must completely and willfully remove your belief against Him.

The fact that you are convicted whenever there are blasphemous thoughts in your head, that means you are NOT blaspheming. The fact that you are worried about renouncing God simply means that you still believe and love Him, so you are NOT renouncing Him.

I know what you've been saying because I exactly went thru that.

Once you've realized that God is NOT legalistic - but treats each individual based on his current ondition (OCD), the fears will dissipate.

 

[OptimisticSmile]

I understand. Back when I was suicidal I obsessed that I would eventually lose it and curse God and die and then when standing before him at judgment I would say F&*# you to him.

it was scary and since I was under such pain and agony I was afraid that I was so angry at God that I would actually do that. I did not want to be angry at God but it was like the natural reaction to thinking he was angry and did not want any part of me and that I was condemned and he was rejecting my cries for salvation. I did not want to think about death and saying F(*& you to him at judgment but I just couldnt get it out of my mind. I really did not want to be angry at him. I think aggression is a natural reaction to affliction. If you spank a dog it usually bites. I was being challenged by God with the OCD, it was painful and so the obsession turned towrds blasphemous thoughts as a natural aggressive response.

 

[PARCmd]

We all aim to be healed, but constantly asking for reassurances in other non-OCD forums or sites would only drive an OCD person crazy. To be safe, I would recommend to stop this.

I wish I hadn't looked for anywhere about unpardonable sin and the like. It aggravated my OCD to the point I had to pre-empt thoughts in order to stop. It's like this: the thoughts are NOT a sin - it's just that - a simple weirded-out thought. But now I wonder if the pre-empts I did were THE sin - after all, it was me consciously pre-empting those thoughts (which of course, are only to stop the thoughts).

Next, I searched if a Christian can lose his Salvation. You know what happened? I just had obsessions renouncing God?! I had to pre-empt thoughts - again, to stop the thoughts. To my horror, I forgot thinking about "not" after the pre-empted thought- so this kept me thinking all day, "Have I renounced God? Have I become an apostate?"

And probably the last straw, when I pre-empted thoughts, I accidentally misplaced the words God and Satan, so instead of pre-empting like this "I renounce Satan, not God", it became the opposite - to my horror. I just realized that it was opposite when I finished pre-empting those thoughts. While I honestly did not willfully aim to renounce God, I am now very fearful of the consequences these might have.

If I could turn back time, I wouldn't have looked for reassurance. The only thing it gave me was to aggravate my OCD, probably to the point of no return (God forbid) - the misplacing of God's Name in the situation above.

I already accepted that all my past obsessions including the pre-empted thoughts (the ones who have been canceled successfully) have been forgiven.

My only concern now are those pre-empted thoughts which, by some sort of event, I was not able to cancel successfully (there are lots of em), and the misplacing of God's Name in the renunciation stated above (which I Accidentally did four-fve times already).

 

[QUannie]

Hello,
I do not know how much I can quote so I will do my best to change words. This is info from OCD Freedom for the Obsessive Compulsive by Michael R. Emlet.
There is a confusion of a TEMPTATION to sin with actually COMMITTING the sin., BUT, ACCORDING TO **JAMES 1:13-15
the thoughts ARE NOT EVEN A TEMPTATION....

"And remember when you ARE BEING TEMPTED, do not say God is tempting me,. God is never tempted to do wrong, and He never tempts anyone else. TEMPTATION COMES FROM OUR OWN DESIRES, which ENTICE us and drag us away. These DESIRES give birth to sinful ACTIONS. and when sin is allowed to grow it gives birth to death." James 1:13-15.

While these thoughts are horrific they do not fit the description offered in James. You are not being allured by these horrific impulse/thoughts...you are being repulsed. True temptation comes from a desire....you have no desire for them.


I hope this helps....
Q

I prayed for us all!!!

 

[jc9992]

i agree with you PARCmd that looking for reassurance is a big mistake and its possibly my biggest regret.

What im scared of is that ill get through this,live a good christian life,be completely reassured .but still live in constant fear of these thoughts.i know that God doesnt want anyone to live like that so there must be a solution.

 

[marcb]

I pushed the limits on my exposure therapy today. I hardly know who I am at this point. I think this is the right thing to do, but what about loving God with all of your heart, soul, and MIND?

My therapeutic regimine consisted of letting it all go. I kept going. I one-upped every despicable thought. Then I just got stuck and could not stop the ride. It was horrible. I said a prayer afterward, asking God to understand and to never let go of me.

Please do not reassure me. As I write this, I wonder what I could do other than be reassured of God's love and mercy?

If you have any therapeutic recommendations, that would be great, but please hold me accountable and do not reassure me (as much as I am in sheer agony right now)...

 

[jc9992]

Thats good marc that you are absolutley refusing reassurance, even though you feel so bad. thats pretty good therapy itself.

 

[jc9992]

Hello everyone.Im doing a little better today,ive just decided that im going to live for God and push forward in my spiritual life instead of living in constant fear of blasphemy.I just have to keep telling myself that God doesnt want me to live like that and that nothing can take me away from God unless i choose to be taken away, and as of now thats not what i want. I believe that realizing this is one step closer to my complete healing.

 

[OptimisticSmile]

What has helped me since I had blasphmeous thoughts is exactly what you said you will do. Press foreward with your christian walk allow God to use you. Inviting you to be used by him is a way for him to show his love toward you. we tend to feel God is angry at us but why would he be. we are suffering. We are suffering from things that as pointed out above, we have no desire for. Christ bears with us in our suffering. It is painful for him to see his children in so much affliction but he is in no way angry at us for these things which are uncontrollable.

I still think back to my blapshemous thoughts and wonder would God forgive me of that , I don't see how or why he would but I know he has by the things he continues to do in my life.

 

[Boxers1]

Hey Marcb, jc9992 and everyone...
I haven't posted in a while...I have been battling like you guys have and it kind of throws me into a depression like tail spin so I kind of disappear for a while...Here's what happens to me so I know this happens to you guys too (since it is all OCD)....so the more I would try to figure out "certainly or exactly" what the blasphemy agains the holy spirit was that Jesus was talking about, the more my OCD would latch on to that and repeat whatever the definition was in my head (thought control was impossible). So for example, if the definition of the day (usually from the internet) was for example, "rejecting the holy spirit's call to Christ" then my mind would say those words "I reject the hs call to Christ" and then immediately the anxiety would fire in and I would start trying to cancel it with "No...Never." I would try to make the "No- Never" sound louder than the previous anxious thought to make sure it really cancelled it. Of course then if I got over that obsession that I had not really rejected the hs call to Christ, then the definition would change to "attributing Christ's work to satan" and then of course, the thoughts happened all over again. The thoughts, combination of thoughts, definition of words of the unpardonable sin can be endless in my mind- and this has been my biggest struggle. In the end, there is nothing left to do than to acknowledge that I can't control my thoughts, but they aren't really true and I HAVE to do exposure therapy with them until I don't react anymore b/c. Sometimes I really still wonder why Jesus didn't explain "exactly" what he was talking about and why we are left to ponder a definition which no one is ever quite sure of and of course drives the OCDr almost to the point of madness over the issue (What words is it? Did I think it? Well of course I just did), but it seems clear that his concern was over the condition of spiritual blindness the pharisees were falling into as a result seeing God's work as Satan's work and not being able to "see" the difference and "see" Christ to accept him. The only real answer for whatever is "unpardonable" is a spiritual condition that cannot believe in Christ b/c all spiritual evidence has been refused....Now of course, my OCD can say "I refuse all spiritual evidence"....Am I shocked? No....my b/c my thoughts can be endless. Do I refuse all spiritual evidence? Of course not, I believe and so do you.
I hope this doesn't cause any spikes, but helps you to see that you can't control the combination of thoughts, so don't actively try to control them. You can only control your response to them over time with practice. We don't believe the thoughts so they are nothing and then they can be safely ignored. I practive this every day and have been able to "defeat" many previous obsessions...only until the next one comes....so I will practice what I know again.
Boxers1

I pushed the limits on my exposure therapy today. I hardly know who I am at this point. I think this is the right thing to do, but what about loving God with all of your heart, soul, and MIND?

My therapeutic regimine consisted of letting it all go. I kept going. I one-upped every despicable thought. Then I just got stuck and could not stop the ride. It was horrible. I said a prayer afterward, asking God to understand and to never let go of me.

Please do not reassure me. As I write this, I wonder what I could do other than be reassured of God's love and mercy?

If you have any therapeutic recommendations, that would be great, but please hold me accountable and do not reassure me (as much as I am in sheer agony right now)...

 

[jc9992]

i agree with you completely Boxers1.Ive been having a hard day today because i still cant feel "safe" from these thoughts no matter what.They keep coming despite my best efforts.I feel so bad because Jesus has done so much for me during this struggle and i feel that one thought could cause me to lose it all, every bad thought i get i feel like its the ONE.the one that i meant,the one that defied God, the one that agreed with the pharisees.Even though ive never meant any of these,ive never defied God,and most of all ive NEVER agreed with the pharisees.

Deep down i know that the unpardonable sin is developing bitter feelings toward God and finally accussing him of using demon powers and maliciously misinterpreting the Holy Spirit(which by the way not i nor anyone on here has actually done)However over the time my interpretation of the unpardonable sin has changed so much that i cant get the real meaning of it in my head.Here is a list of things ive thoght were the unpardonable sin.

making fun of speaking in tongues
pretending to recieve the Holy Ghost
saying or thinking anything bad about the Holy Ghost even if it was an accident(this view is the one that has caused me so many problems)

I of course now know that blasphemy comes from the heart and finally the mouth just like Jesus said,but i still cant get rid of that view that it can be committed in thought even on accident.If i can get rid of the fear that these unintentional thoughts will condemn me ,then i wont be typing things like this anymore.

This is my only fear right now:That ill commit blasphemy in the future and so i must always live with a great fear of my own mind.

if i can get past that.i'll be done with these struggles.

 

[PARCmd]

Honestly speaking, since blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has been shown to be the willful turning away from Holy Spirit and Jesus, YOU will never commit those mistakes, because the fact that you want to be a Christian prevents it from happening. Remember the Bible verse, "No one can snatch them (Christians) away from my Father's hand".

What's more frightening I guess is the renunciations against God, because partly of Romans 6:4-5 (warnings against Christians who apostasize, i.e., renounce God) because they shall HAVE NO repentance forever. But then, I guess that refers to those who WILLFULLY DO IT, and not to US, WHO DON'T even want to do it and can't even bear to think about it.

On the similar token, if what you said in the other thread (Pre-empts and stories) is your experience, particularly the pre-empting thoughts (to prevent obsessions from happening), these are mental compulsions. And they are frightening too, because sometimes you are able to cancel them, sometimes you aren't. And to add to it all, there is some confusion whether it is done willfully or not. (Since compulsions are technically WILLFULLY done by an OCD sufferer to neutralize any anxiety - though the meaning of the compulsion itself depends on what the person really believes).

 

[Boxers1]

hey jc9992:
I get how you feel totally....we have ocd. Our minds can think of ANYTHING. That is the fear. We have unlimited freedom in our heads and with OCD we just totally scare ourselves by thinking of the things that scare us the most. The only way out of the fear is to live with the thoughts until you don't react. There really is no other answer. You have to accept the fact the thoughts will come b/c of the illness. But you know your salvation is based on faith in Christ, not thoughts. The thoughts are never true, they are ghosts we have to live with until we aren't so afraid of them. We have to stop trying to define the unpardonable sin with words b/c that just feeds the obsession. actually the reason there are so many "interpretations" of it is b/c nobody really can ultimately define it b/c it involves a spiritual blindess of the heart that only Jesus knows about....this kills us with OCD b/c we are always on a quest for absolute certainty about this issue and "which thought" of ours just crossed the line. Its not about crossing a line with your thoughts b/c for our thoughts there are no boundaries (that's why this fear is so scary). Its about crossing a line with your spiritual sight till you can no longer believe. No one can understand at what point someone has refused all evidence for Jesus and can no longer believe- for the pharisees, all spiritual sense of the moral glory of Jesus' works (designed to produce faith) were destroyed. When truth is consistently refused, you end up blind. We will NEVER understand this b/c we have yielded to the truth and believe it. The rest is our illness that plays games in our mind relentlessly. Just leave the thoughts alone no matter what they say. They do not represent your faith.
Believe me I have to preach this to myself b/c my OCD is just as sneaky as yours.
Boxers1

i agree with you completely Boxers1.Ive been having a hard day today because i still cant feel "safe" from these thoughts no matter what.They keep coming despite my best efforts.I feel so bad because Jesus has done so much for me during this struggle and i feel that one thought could cause me to lose it all, every bad thought i get i feel like its the ONE.the one that i meant,the one that defied God, the one that agreed with the pharisees.Even though ive never meant any of these,ive never defied God,and most of all ive NEVER agreed with the pharisees.

Deep down i know that the unpardonable sin is developing bitter feelings toward God and finally accussing him of using demon powers and maliciously misinterpreting the Holy Spirit(which by the way not i nor anyone on here has actually done)However over the time my interpretation of the unpardonable sin has changed so much that i cant get the real meaning of it in my head.Here is a list of things ive thoght were the unpardonable sin.

making fun of speaking in tongues
pretending to recieve the Holy Ghost
saying or thinking anything bad about the Holy Ghost even if it was an accident(this view is the one that has caused me so many problems)

I of course now know that blasphemy comes from the heart and finally the mouth just like Jesus said,but i still cant get rid of that view that it can be committed in thought even on accident.If i can get rid of the fear that these unintentional thoughts will condemn me ,then i wont be typing things like this anymore.

This is my only fear right now:That ill commit blasphemy in the future and so i must always live with a great fear of my own mind.

if i can get past that.i'll be done with these struggles.

 

[PARCmd]

hey jc9992:
I get how you feel totally....we have ocd. Our minds can think of ANYTHING. That is the fear. We have unlimited freedom in our heads and with OCD we just totally scare ourselves by thinking of the things that scare us the most. The only way out of the fear is to live with the thoughts until you don't react. There really is no other answer. You have to accept the fact the thoughts will come b/c of the illness. But you know your salvation is based on faith in Christ, not thoughts. The thoughts are never true, they are ghosts we have to live with until we aren't so afraid of them. We have to stop trying to define the unpardonable sin with words b/c that just feeds the obsession. actually the reason there are so many "interpretations" of it is b/c nobody really can ultimately define it b/c it involves a spiritual blindess of the heart that only Jesus knows about....this kills us with OCD b/c we are always on a quest for absolute certainty about this issue and "which thought" of ours just crossed the line. Its not about crossing a line with your thoughts b/c for our thoughts there are no boundaries (that's why this fear is so scary). Its about crossing a line with your spiritual sight till you can no longer believe. No one can understand at what point someone has refused all evidence for Jesus and can no longer believe- for the pharisees, all spiritual sense of the moral glory of Jesus' works (designed to produce faith) were destroyed. When truth is consistently refused, you end up blind. We will NEVER understand this b/c we have yielded to the truth and believe it. The rest is our illness that plays games in our mind relentlessly. Just leave the thoughts alone no matter what they say. They do not represent your faith.
Believe me I have to preach this to myself b/c my OCD is just as sneaky as yours.
Boxers1

You're absolutely right with regards to obsessions - God will definitely disregard them (forgive isn't even the word because what will God forgive? Our thoughts aren't a sin, but in fact, a symptom of the disease).

But what about Mental Compulsions? It's like you are OK with your obsessions, which were really reduced, then out of a sudden, you feel an urge to think about pre-empting thoughts (example cursing the Holy Spirit through thoughts but subsequently thinking about the word "not" to cancel it). Now your urge gives you a great deal of anxiety and because it is OCD (this is the compulsion part), you do it, not because you believe in it but because it brings you anxiety not do so - you think about the curse, but with the "not" with it - well, gramatically, this is already canceled, right?

In your opinion, is this (doing a mental compulsion) a sin? Or is it forgivable?

 

[Boxers1]

The mental compulsions are the illness b/c it is all driven from the anxiety disorder. Its the anxiety that forces you to do the compulsion. My cancel phrase was always "NEVER" after the thoughts and sometimes I still do it. One of things a counselor told me was "You are cancelling out thoughts that aren't even valid anyway." So it doesn't matter if the cancel phrase is really there or not, you just do it to make yourself feel better, but really all it does is give more attention to the obsessional thought. It doesn't matter what the thought is, its all OCD. Remember, your thoughts can go anywhere. Its what you believe that matters. Your thoughts can renounce God, think something about the holy spirit, honestly it is endless what are minds can do- THAT is the problem. There are endless possibilities of obsessions and cancel phrases. We focus on thoughts our mind can create that scare us- and only the ones that scare us. You just have to say "nope, that's not true" and go on. You know the truth that God's forgiveness is based on believing in Jesus and nothing else. And you do believe...just stay there when the thoughts come...don't try to control them and in time they will fade quicker. Taking anti-anxiety meds really helped me cope with the thoughts better.
I still struggle, but there really is no other choice than to ignore the thoughts...your thoughts are fleeting...they do not dictate truth and do not accurately represent your faith.
Boxers1

You're absolutely right with regards to obsessions - God will definitely disregard them (forgive isn't even the word because what will God forgive? Our thoughts aren't a sin, but in fact, a symptom of the disease).

But what about Mental Compulsions? It's like you are OK with your obsessions, which were really reduced, then out of a sudden, you feel an urge to think about pre-empting thoughts (example cursing the Holy Spirit through thoughts but subsequently thinking about the word "not" to cancel it). Now your urge gives you a great deal of anxiety and because it is OCD (this is the compulsion part), you do it, not because you believe in it but because it brings you anxiety not do so - you think about the curse, but with the "not" with it - well, gramatically, this is already canceled, right?

In your opinion, is this (doing a mental compulsion) a sin? Or is it forgivable?

 

[jc9992]

i sincerely prayed about this today and amazingly i found almost instant relief,I felt like God told me to just ignore the thoughts because i dont even want them and so they are not mine.I guess thats all I can do now.So im just going to let God work his will in my life.I have to just learn to live with it,but i believe that God will lift the burden over time.

 

[PARCmd]

But what if my Mental Compulsions are not that simple (just NOTs and NEVERs)?

My Mental Compulsions are thinking deliberately about the blasphemous and renunciation thoughts and saying NOT.

Of course (and needless to say), there are a lot of blasphemous and renunciation thoughts that I wasn’t able to cancel – sometimes asleep, sometimes, there are other things that I caught my attention, and sometimes, the Mental Compulsions just snowballed (more than one thought) so while I canceled another, I still haven’t cancelled the other Mental Compulsion.

Examples of my Mental Compulsions / pre-empts today include this (most are new or modified):

1. I was doing a Mental Compulsion / pre-empt, which says “I renounce you not Jesus, but Satan”, then suddenly after the “..you not…”, there was a word, I think it’s “God”, that was free-floating in my thoughts (I think it was me who thought about it), so while I was able to cancel the renunciation against Jesus, I wasn’t able to cancel the renunciation against God. But I think I was able to say “Both not”, so it is cancelled right?

2. I was pre-empting and thought about something like this: “[A curse word], then [the word not]”. So it is cancelled, right? But during that time there was a free-floating word (I think it was me again who thought about it), like “Holy Spirit” after the curse word and before the word “not”. So, I immediately stated that that free-floating word “is not included in the sentence of cursing”. The question is, the blasphemy is not performed, right?

3. I again pre-empted the above sentence, “I renounce you not Jesus, but Satan”, OK, so there is still no renunciation. Then a stream of renouncing thoughts entered my mind. I thought, “All of you, be countered with the word not”. So all those would be considered as countered, right?

4. When I between sleeping and waking-up, there was an urge to pre-empt, so I did the Mental Compulsions again. However, since I am only half-awake, I was not able to put some “nots”. Would God consider this accidental and disregard them?

5. As I was writing here, a sentence (mixed Pre-empt and obsessions) said “[a curse word]…[Holy Spirit]”. I was shocked, and immediately aimed to counter it by thinking “[a curse word]..not..[Holy Spirit]”. When this was all through, I forgot that I should cancel the first sentence, and NOT MAKE a second sentence – which would be independent on the first, leaving the first sentence virtually uncanceled.

Numbers 1 and 3 happened a lot this day. Just when I thought yesterday that “Thank God, I’m safe”, well, the thoughts above were a new set of combinations that continuously plague my mind just this day. That’s why Boxers1 was right when she said that there are endless combinations of OCD.

Now, as I edited this, I just, well I don't really know if it was an obsession or me performing a Mental Compulsion (pre-empt), uh, I guess the thought was "I renounce you God Not" - OK, the ACTUAL thought does not have a not. That's what my problem is - I forgot to put a "not". It was reverberating in my head for four seconds, I think. And it is now causing me misery.


Well, the context is this: I do the Mental Compulsions/pre-empting because there are urges to do so – not really to renounce God or blaspheme him, which is very far from my thoughts when I perform the Mental Compulsions.

For me, the obsessions aren’t the main problem anymore. It is the Mental Compulsions – which I can’t stop myself to do, and which I’m not able to cancel at all times. Please help. I'm starting to feel really, really hopeless. Do you have this type of OCD too?

 

[marcb]

For me, the obsessions aren’t the main problem anymore. It is the Mental Compulsions – which I can’t stop myself to do, and which I’m not able to cancel at all times.

Good work! "I'm not able to cancel" is the most insightful and accurate part of your post. It is the first step and foundation of recovery from anything:

Admitting YOU are powerless over the situation.

The next steps involve recognizing we need God's deliverance since He is greater than us and in charge of our lives.

There is wisdom in 12 step programs and people in recovery have so much in common that most of it can apply directly to ocd. In fact if you google "12 steps ocd" or "12 steps scrupulosity" you will see that these have been modified. Of course it's not entirely Christian (because it's nonspecific about God as a "power"), so how much more can we gain as Christians as we have the true God revealed in flesh and don't have to struggle so much with the "God as we understand Him" part. Not that we fully comprehend God (He is way better than we can imagine or describe), but I think (hope?) you catch my drift.

Well done, PARCmd!