Wifely Submission

[Texas Lynn]

The thing is thought there are actually people who WANT to be is a submissive role. Really. It's not limited to women either. Some people are happier with someone else making the decisions for them. It may not be my ideal, or even someone elses idea of "healthy" (whatever that means) BUT if it works, and each party is respectful of the other, so be it.

In that context there's certainly not anything wrong with that. For some, empowerment is submission.

Of course that is not what is being argued here. What we have essentially is a bunch of beta males (few of which if any sport a 'married' icon), bloviating about the way things ought to be, for everybody.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Because it's God's model for a marriage?

There's not any basis for that in Christianity though there may be in your faith.

Are equality and wifely submission mutually exclusive? I insist that they are not, for my religion teaches both.

I think with these caveats:

-independence of women needs to be massively encouraged.

-careers for women needs to be massively encouraged.

-women are free beings and the marriage contract is entirely voluntary and revokable at any time for any reason.

-freedom of movement of women is never restricted one iota.

-females are encouraged to be clergy and legislators.

-women are not assigned value on the basis of their marital status.

-arranged marriages are forbidden.

Then and only then should 'mutual submission' in a marriage be encouraged at all.

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

You said that you find your husband sexy in submissive/dominant marriage situation - you said it, nobody else.

where did i say anything about being spanked?
I find him sexy not in a "situation" but being my husband as God designed him to be~as my strong provider, protector....my perfect partner. Not having to worry about alot of things that he takes care of in his "biblical husband" role frees me up to be happy and not burdened. It is freeing to me, which makes me happy and which in turn makes me fall in love with him every day...which in turn, makes him very attractive and sexy!

No it's an artificial system implemented by men who thought they were the bees knees and all of God's creation should bow down to them including their wives, conservative christians have the highest divorce rates, 'traditional' marriages are unhappier and have greater incidences of domestic violance then egalitarian marriages. If it was natural for women to want to be submissive then surely we would find the opposite to be true, why isn't God blessing all these womens who are being the biblical ideal of a wife, chaste, docile and submissive - why are they unhappy,

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/articles/Preato3.htm

I read thru the link you provided. It always boils down to whether people believe the bible is God's Word. Period. That is where the difference is in the opinions in this thread. I am not here to try to force others to believe as I do-that the bible is the perfect Word of God. Just giving my viewpoint.

One Scripture came to mind (see blue part below) when I read your post above about if it were natural for women to be submissive. No, it is not going to "feel" natural for women at first and no, it does not "feel" great at first as it is against our nature as humans. But that does not mean it is the "right" way of God. Just like it is sometimes easier to be in our flesh as Christians then to live in the Spirit. Our "nature" is the flesh, thus we find it easier being there.

Isaiah 55:6-13
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. 8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9 "For the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts."

Have a great night, Athene!

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

I was a Christian when I was a submissive wife. I submitted exactly the way the Bible says and when I got out of line my ex reminded me of the Biblical injunction to be a Godly submissive wife. Trouble was and comes when the man's idea of submitting means changing me into something I am not. Yes we were poorly matched from the start, and I'll never have a relationship like that again. But, the submitting in the name of God was what destroyed whatever love was there in the beginning.

There is no reason for a woman to submit in a healthy marriage. The archiac teachings from the Bible and the Patriarchal society it creates is very similar to what is in the middle east.

I say again (my bad, I didn't speak well enough to be understood) but that is not what I meant by a Christian marriage. Yes, you were both Christians, but you submitted in the way that a Christian wife is supposed to to her Christian husband, but your Christian husband did not act in the way laid out by the Bible for a Christian husband to.

It sounds to me like your husband did not treat you with understanding, honor, and respect - which is required of Christian husbands.

Men who are in charge because it is their right by reason of their gender alone will not do well working with and for women in the working world.

I totally agree. As a Christian, I hold that a man needs to realize that he is not God over his wife but that he worships the same God as his wife, and he needs to realize that a woman's submission comes not from him but from God, just as his understanding, honor, respect and love for her is to come from God.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

The doublespeak is beginning to get to me.

If you have a marriage wherein one partner must submit to the other, for whatever reason (in the case of this thread, by virtue of gender), you don't have an egalitarian relationship. You can give lip service to equality all you want, and claim that it's really fair and balanced, but in the end, it does no good to call a dog a cat: your relationship is one of dominance and submission. It could be healthy and work well, or it could be abusive, but it's still unequal.

On the flip side, if you make the claim that one of you submits, and give lip service to, say, religious injunctions making one of you the head of the household by default, and yet you really do treat your spouse with respect in practice, and she makes as many decisions as you do, then you do have an egalitarian relationship. You can claim that you're following the command that one of you submit, but you aren't really. If partners yield to one another on a more or less equal basis, regardless of what any kind of scripture says about it anyway, your relationship is equal.

I don't give a schmooty which model any couple decides to use. Either can work, well or poorly. Just depends on the couple. I choose one model for my own relationships, but that means squat all for any other couple. Ya just gotta do whatever works.

I honestly get cranky when I see people trying to pretend that their relationship is equal when it isn't, or is dominant/submissive when it really isn't. Favor either one, I don't care, just be honest about it, please.

"The two will become one flesh..."


This is the center of marriage, in the Christian sense. A marriage needs to operate as one body, and one body has one head - how many bodies do you see walking without heads?

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

Horses_boy, let me ask you something, are you married?

No, my senior year starts this Thursday.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

There's not any basis for that in Christianity though there may be in your faith.

-independence of women needs to be massively encouraged.

Christianity: the entity of followers of Christ.

Christ on marriage: the two will become on flesh.

How can the two be really independent when they are one flesh? It's like saying the head and the body are independent from each other - such a state of being would destroy the sustaining relationship between them.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

See, that's the trouble with authoritarian religions worshipping gender-biased, personal patriarch gods.

hmmm... Different thread? Because there is no gender bias in it. What does Christianity say on marriage? Answer: the two will become one flesh. A married couple is to act as one body, not two seperate bodies and, tell me, how many bodies have you seen walking around without a head?

 

[gwenmead]

"The two will become one flesh..."


This is the center of marriage, in the Christian sense. A marriage needs to operate as one body, and one body has one head - how many bodies do you see walking without heads?

Okay, if I can keep working with the head/body metaphor...

If the "head" of this "one flesh" is comprised of both man and woman, equally making decisions, and with equal authority, then you have an egalitarian relationship.

If the "head" of this "one flesh" is the man alone (or the woman alone), then it isn't equal.

Interestingly enough, it does seem that either model can be backed up by scripture and used in a Christian marriage, depending on how the couple in question views the verses in question.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

Okay, if I can keep working with the head/body metaphor...

If the "head" of this "one flesh" is comprised of both man and woman, equally making decisions, and with equal authority, then you have an egalitarian relationship.

If the "head" of this "one flesh" is the man alone (or the woman alone), then it isn't equal.

Interestingly enough, it does seem that either model can be backed up by scripture and used in a Christian marriage, depending on how the couple in question views the verses in question.

Hmmmm... can you bring up some scripture and show how two ways it could be interpreted to show that?


Now in marriage, some people see two bodies and two heads. Some see one body and two heads. I see one body and one head

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The books of the Bible were written by intensely patriarchal men living in an intensely patriarchal society that valued women as little more than cattle. (cf. the "Ten Utterances" listing the neighbour's wife among his possessions, or Eve's being created from Adam's rib to be his subservient companion, for example.)

Women were thought of as inferior beings all through Antiquity and the better part of the middle ages. It shouldn't really come as a surprise that people thought that their deity of choice wanted women to submit to their men.

 

[TheMissus]

How can the two be really independent when they are one flesh? It's like saying the head and the body are independent from each other - such a state of being would destroy the sustaining relationship between them.

I'm betting the married women in this thread would be a lot more receptive to your viewpoint if you were speaking from experience. We're basing our arguments on how we've seen our own marriages work or not work. Dealing with hypotheticals from a 17 year old boy is a tough sell.

Marriage has so many variables that there cannot be an easy answer. Consider some of the couples already used as examples in this thread:
1. The husband performs his role as spiritual leader well and the wife is happy with their respective roles. The marriage is built on the Bible, respect, and love. Both are content and in love.
2. The husband abhors the idea of a submissive wife, and instead prefers a woman who is his equal. The marriage is based on mutual respect and love. Both are content and in love.
(There are other examples of various degrees of submission from husband and wife, but for the sake of clarity, I'll stick with these two.)

Both types of marriages are happy ones, but the model is completely different. What works for one couple doesn't necessarily work for anyone else, because people are different, relationship dynamics are different, and personal experiences are different. One isn't better than the other. The only judgment that can be made is deciding which model works best for you and your relationship.

If Model #1 doesn't work for you, you've done nothing wrong. You haven't failed as a Christian or a wife and your marriage is not doomed. Anyone who says that women who don't submit are bad wives or spiritually unfulfilled (or anything similar) are wrong. Wives should not inherently submit, especially if submission wouldn't work within their marriages. It isn't up to the outside world to decide what's best for each marriage. You cannot force me to have a marriage based on the Biblical model any more than I can force you to have a marriage based on the egalitarian model.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

The books of the Bible were written by intensely patriarchal men living in an intensely patriarchal society that valued women as little more than cattle. (cf. the "Ten Utterances" listing the neighbour's wife among his possessions, or Eve's being created from Adam's rib to be his subservient companion, for example.)

Women were thought of as inferior beings all through Antiquity and the better part of the middle ages. It shouldn't really come as a surprise that people thought that their deity of choice wanted women to submit to their men.

Not true/merely your opinion - you have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. And either way, you're not convincing any Christian here with an argument based from the outside looking in.

I'm betting the married women in this thread would be a lot more receptive to your viewpoint if you were speaking from experience. We're basing our arguments on how we've seen our own marriages work or not work. Dealing with hypotheticals from a 17 year old boy is a tough sell.

And I'd be a bit more receptive if women here well past my age would understand what the Bible lays out as a Christian marriage before attacking it with their prejudice - which most have done.

Marriage has so many variables that there cannot be an easy answer. Consider some of the couples already used as examples in this thread:
1. The husband performs his role as spiritual leader well and the wife is happy with their respective roles. The marriage is built on the Bible, respect, and love. Both are content and in love.
2. The husband abhors the idea of a submissive wife, and instead prefers a woman who is his equal. The marriage is based on mutual respect and love. Both are content and in love.
(There are other examples of various degrees of submission from husband and wife, but for the sake of clarity, I'll stick with these two.)

Both types of marriages are happy ones, but the model is completely different. What works for one couple doesn't necessarily work for anyone else, because people are different, relationship dynamics are different, and personal experiences are different. One isn't better than the other. The only judgment that can be made is deciding which model works best for you and your relationship.

If Model #1 doesn't work for you, you've done nothing wrong. You haven't failed as a Christian or a wife and your marriage is not doomed. Anyone who says that women who don't submit are bad wives or spiritually unfulfilled (or anything similar) are wrong. Wives should not inherently submit, especially if submission wouldn't work within their marriages. It isn't up to the outside world to decide what's best for each marriage. You cannot force me to have a marriage based on the Biblical model any more than I can force you to have a marriage based on the egalitarian model.

I'm not trying to force you to do anything - I'm debating against people that say my ideas are archaic, barbaric and out-dated: which I find especially irritating when they are Christians as they toss aside some of Jesus' words as archaic, barbaric, and out-dated or as mere poetry and not reality, while they don't think that forces them to do the same with Jesus' other words, such as their salvation.

However, I have yet to see a marriage that has followed the Christian model and failed - Christian marriages have failed, I've seen that alot, but not Christian marriages that follow the Christian model.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Not true/merely your opinion - you have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. And either way, you're not convincing any Christian here with an argument based from the outside looking in.

It is my OPINION that women were denigrated throughout the middle ages and Antiquity?
It is my OPINION that the Middle East was (and is) dominated by intensely patriarchal societies that designate a place of submission to their women?
It is my OPINION that the books of the Bible were written by men who belonged to these societies?
It is my OPINION that Abrahamaic mythology transferred the act of birth (from a rib) to Adam in order to show that woman was created from (and for) MAN rather than vice versa?

Horses_boy, the next time you try to refute historical facts as "not true", come up with a little more than just *your* OPINION.

 

[TheMissus]

And I'd be a bit more receptive if women here well past my age would understand what the Bible lays out as a Christian marriage before attacking it with their prejudice - which most have done.

And how do you justify your assumption that they don't understand? Why are you assuming that you're more of a Biblical expert than they are?

Saying that you cannot speak from experience while we can is an objective observation. Saying that you have a greater understanding of the Bible is nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion.

I'm not trying to force you to do anything - I'm debating against people that say my ideas are archaic, barbaric and out-dated: which I find especially irritating when they are Christians as they toss aside some of Jesus' words as archaic, barbaric, and out-dated or as mere poetry and not reality, while they don't think that forces them to do the same with Jesus' other words, such as their salvation.

Here's a tip: When I reply to you, and then go on to another point, don't assume that my universal "you" refers to you specifically. Did you stop to consider that the people who say that the Biblical model doesn't apply well to modern society may be speaking from experience? I know that my Christian husband has no interest in following the Biblical model and it doesn't weaken his faith. He just doesn't believe that the strong-minded, opinionated woman he fell in love with should automatically submit upon marriage. Many, many modern male Christians believe the same. You don't have a monopoly on Biblical translation, or the authority on how it applies to modern society.

However, I have yet to see a marriage that has followed the Christian model and failed - Christian marriages have failed, I've seen that alot, but not Christian marriages that follow the Christian model.

And you haven't seen every marriage. You haven't been part of any marriage, for that matter.

BTW, staying together is by no means a reliable indicator of marital success. My grandparents were the epitome of the Christian model of wifely submission, and they were together until my grandfather died. But their marriage was anything but happy.

 

[Athene]

Not true/merely your opinion - you have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. And either way, you're not convincing any Christian here with an argument based from the outside looking in.

Jane the bane covered that one nicely. Facts aren't opinions BTW, there's a slight but subtle difference.

And I'd be a bit more receptive if women here well past my age would understand what the Bible lays out as a Christian marriage before attacking it with their prejudice - which most have done.

I do understand what is layed out as a christian marriage and I disagree with it and refuse to consider myself less then and subserviant to my husband.

I'm not trying to force you to do anything - I'm debating against people that say my ideas are archaic, barbaric and out-dated: which I find especially irritating when they are Christians as they toss aside some of Jesus' words as archaic, barbaric, and out-dated or as mere poetry and not reality, while they don't think that forces them to do the same with Jesus' other words, such as their salvation

.

Not Jesus' words, but Pauls.

However, I have yet to see a marriage that has followed the Christian model and failed - Christian marriages have failed, I've seen that alot, but not Christian marriages that follow the Christian model.

I posted a link to an article which cited various studies showing that egalitarian marriages are happier and more likely to last then 'traditional marriages' Abuse is more prevalent in 'traditional' marriages as well. Or do you have your own explanation as to why abuse is more likely to occur in a 'traditional marriage' and why the divorce rates amongst conservative christians are higher then other christian groups?

 

[Athene]

BTW, staying together is by no means a reliable indicator of marital success. My grandparents were the epitome of the Christian model of wifely submission, and they were together until my grandfather died. But their marriage was anything but happy.

i agree, imo if a marriage is unhappy, if there is abuse then it has failed. but you know something horses boy people generally don't wash their dirty laundry in public and abusers generally don't advertise the fact they beat their wives.

 

[gwenmead]

Hmmmm... can you bring up some scripture and show how two ways it could be interpreted to show that?

I could certainly take a stab at it. For the record, though, I don't know how many Christians would really take the input of an apostate seriously. Seein' as how I don't have the Holy Spirit and all that.

But, for the sake of the debate, I'll see what I can come up with, based on the days when I was a Christian. My answers are based on my own thoughts, as well as what I remember of the various positions of fellow Christians.

First let's take a look at some NT verses about marriage, and about how the members of a marriage are to relate to one another. (I've used the KJV translation here in my link, though I tend to prefer the NASB personally.)

Note also that I have focused on the verses which reference spouses most directly, not to eliminate context (which is provided by the link to the surrounding verses), but to focus on verses most directly relevant to the thread topic, and for post brevity.

Here are some verses which I have seen Bible-believing, Holy-Spirit-led Christian couples use to assert male authority within a marriage.

From Ephesians 5:
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
From Colossians 3:
18Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

From I Corinthians 11:
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Note that I am well aware that there are additional verses admonishing husbands to love their wives, and regard them as Christ regards his church; again, I have not ommitted them in order to leave them out of the argument, but to focus on verses which are more closely related to the topic of this thread - namely, wifely submission.

I recall plenty of Christian couples who used these verses to assert male authority within their relationships. Indeed, when I was a married Christian, it seemed pretty clear to me that there wasn't much question who was supposed to be in charge in a marriage relationship - and it wasn't the woman.

Most Christian couples I knew at the time fortunately regarded the additional admonishments to husbands, and treated their wives like adult human beings. Others gave lip service to the idea, but did not follow through with action, and treated their wives poorly. (My ex-husband sadly fell into this category.) Nonetheless, all of these relationships were ultimately unequal.

Interestingly enough, this verse from I Peter 3 suggests that Christian wives are also to submit to their non-Christian husbands:

1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

I had a fairly literalist interpretation of the Bible when I was still a Christian, and so at the time made the effort to submit to my Christian husband's authority. Nonetheless, I knew a few Christians who took other, more general verses about the equality of those under Christ, such as this one from Galatians 3:

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

...and by all accounts the Holy Spirit led them to believe that verses such as this trumped the ones about men being in charge, so they had egalitarian marriages. Others took verses such as Ephesians 5:21 the same way, operating under a form of "mutual submission", which in practice ended up meaning that neither of them was ultimately "in charge" over the whole deal.

Granted, though, as I said - this is the input of an apostate. And what do I know?

Now in marriage, some people see two bodies and two heads. Some see one body and two heads. I see one body and one head

Yeah. There are different ways of looking at it.

In my current marriage there are two people and neither one has ultimate authority over the other, or over both. We're a team of two people.

 

[TheMissus]

If we're going to use a body part as a metaphor, I prefer the example that I use to describe my own marriage. He and I are the two hemispheres of the brain-- each individual with our separate strengths and expertise, but dependent upon each other to function at our best. Neither is superior. We have different things that we excel at, but we work even better when we work together.

 

[christalee4]

If we're going to use a body part as a metaphor, I prefer the example that I use to describe my own marriage. He and I are the two hemispheres of the brain-- each individual with our separate strengths and expertise, but dependent upon each other to function at our best. Neither is superior. We have different things that we excel at, but we work even better when we work together.

Correct: the brain does not function "as one", as much as ignorant people want to believe. The brain is highly developed and complicated, and as functioning inside the "head", should not limited to a set function.

Two, maybe even three, may enable a multi-function level to operate properly. Opinions, history, experiences, EDUCATION, and knowledge, all contribute to the optimal functioning of a brain, a family unit, and a marriage.