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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
lawtonfogle
My solace my terror, my terror my solace.
He that spareth his rod hateth his son:
Proverbs 13:24
Ok, so the better translation is spare the rod, hate the child. Overall though, the whole 'cultural context' argument applies to this verse as well, but that doesn't stop many from using this to justify forcing a child to participate in BDSM (the only case of spanking I ever know about between adults that is not outright violent abuse).
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E
Everlasting33
Guest
Black asked this and I would like to create a discussion on it:
"what is the reason that Western Muslim men don't follow their own Koran if they don't discipline and beat their wives? Is it because they don't agree with tha portion of the Koran? Or is it only because it is a criminal offense in Western nations?"
"what is the reason that Western Muslim men don't follow their own Koran if they don't discipline and beat their wives? Is it because they don't agree with tha portion of the Koran? Or is it only because it is a criminal offense in Western nations?"
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lawtonfogle
My solace my terror, my terror my solace.
I know you did, but in a contest, you are normally contrasting the differences in some area (how many contest you know of where the point is to tie)?
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lawtonfogle
My solace my terror, my terror my solace.
I dare say they just don't agree with that part. Kinda like all the Christians who don't agree with the Bible on some of the laws concerning sex (different laws for different Christians). It is really a cultural thing, the more 'first world' culture people in a religion become, the more they begin to ignore actual verses in favor of 'the message behind the words'. You see this with educated Muslims.
Of course, this does go a bit farther in some cases, for example the Muslims who are trying to say that Aisha was about 3 times older than she was when she married Muhammad. Kinda odd that after so many centuries, it is only when the majority of the world is embracing an idea that child marriage is wrong and should only be allowed at 18 year old (16 in special cases) that suddenly Muslim scholars are finding out that Aisha was really 18 and not 6 when she married. It is one thing to disagree with what a religion teaches because of cultural differences (I disagree with parts of the Bible all the time), but to go and rewrite it? Well, to be fair, you see that in other religions as well (how many try to rewrite Deut. 22:28-29, or what about the 'Conservative Bible Translation' project?).
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lawtonfogle
My solace my terror, my terror my solace.
Don't convert to Judaism.
(Now if we can just get a Muslim to come complete the cycle
).
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Ah, the joys of interpreting giant texts written ages ago in ancient versions of foreign languages for a wildly different culture...
You really have to wonder.. if God/Allah/Zeus didn't want there to be any possible confusion surrounding His intentions, why didn't He Himself just periodically update his Holy Book to better reflect the current language/customs?
Anyway. Good post. It also answers' Steelerbred33's last question. Some Muslims are still willing to beat their wives when the situation meets the conditions (that's also a misleading thing about this thread btw.. the Qur'an is very much not talking about "a man should just beat up his wife whenever there's a minor disagreement"). Some Muslims wouldn't beat their wives because they know it's illegal. And some/most/many/Ireallyhhavenoideahowcommonthisis simply have a different interpretation of the Qur'an. They're not saying that the Qur'an is wrong. They're saying that the Qur'an is saying something else than what you think it is saying.
On a related note.. it might be interesting to see how the "The Qur'an can only mean 1 thing!" people look at the Bible. Do they think that their interpretation of the Bible is the only possible one (or even that it isn't an interpretation, but that it's just "clearly the truth" or something to that effect)? I think there might be some relation there.. that people who are unable to see how multiple interpretations of the Bible exist, are also unable to see how multiple interpretations of the Qur'an exist.
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Beechwell
Glücksdrache
I'll go out on a limb here and claim that it is precisely those people who insist on a single possible (usually literalist) interpretation of the bible - incidentally their own one of course - who also like to pick individual Koran verses to prove their point - completely disregarding the context of the verse. It's the way they read their holy book; not surprisingly they try to apply the same approach to the holy texts of the rival religion.
Of course such people exist in Islam as well, probably even more so than in Christianity, since the importance of the Koran as God's direct word is more essential to Islam than the Bible is to Christanity.
I certainly can see the allure to read such texts word by word, and treat them as literal rulebooks for life. But I find this approach also incredibly dangerous. It prevents both critical reflection on ones own convictions, and any true understanding for opposing views.
Earlier this year some German bishop (?) said that people should be less concerned with the words of the bible, and more with its spirit (or something to that effect). I think that is good advice for both Christians and Muslims.
EDIT: I suppose it is not really my place to tell Christians or Muslims how they should treat their religious texts. But I can't help the impression that a very specific reading of these texts dominate these forums, which is not shared by all Christians (and Muslims). So I try to lend a voice to these differing theological views.
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One of the interesting aspects of fundamentalists is that they often perceive the world in utterly black and white terms. Thus they believe that their interpretation of their holy text is either totally true or totally wrong. There is no room for any flexibility.
One side effect of this is that it makes debate with extremists very difficult as they are often unable to conceptualize hypothetical examples and they take metaphors as literal.
Back to the thread in hand, the issue of partner abuse is a serious one in western culture as much as it is in Islamic culture. I find the common cultural attitude of Islam towards woman to be abhorent but I know full well that is only some that practice it, and that the number will lessen as they modernize.
You'd be hard pressed to find a christian who believes that wearing mixed fabrics is a sin or that doves blood can cure mildew but both are in the Bible. No matter what logical gymnastics are used to ignore them, the fact remains. Likewise moderate Muslims can ignore parts of the Koran.
The overall issue here is spousal abuse. I think it is naive to isolate the issue to being Islamic, or for that matter simply being against women. Men can find themselves in abusive relationships as well.
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