Kira Faye said:
Thanks that was more the passage I was lookign for..something that wasn't 'changed' to witch craft with dodge translation. As for falling in to the trap as mentioned before.....I am happy where I am for I have found peace.....takign that away form me would a be a sin...witchcraft was before christianity and its still thriving with many positives....I am happy and that shoudl be good enough for god that I love the world that was created and I love my fellow man and myself

Sorry Kira Faye, witchcraft was not created before Christianity. What you are experiencing is a composite faith that was created by a retired British bereaucrat in the 1940's and since then has become even further cut & paste theology at the whim of the particular wiccan leader or writer.

Witchcraft alludes to ancient European religious beliefs and that is about the extent of the "connection", an allusion. Far more direct influences included the discredited anthropology of Gimbutas, Rosicruscian mysticism & popular hermetic traditions (both no earlier than the 15th century, late 20th century radical feminism ( including the man hating lesbian spin of Z Budapest) questionable ecological science transformed to "earth worship", ritualism borrowed from freemasonry ("blessed be" and so "mote it be" are direct borrowings), and hinduism through the theosophy of Blavatsky. Of course wiccans quite often claim their beliefs and practices are ancient but when push comes to shove they take refuge in the post modern rationalizing of Margot Adler and Starhawk; i.e. "if I think it's spiritual and right then it is spiritual and right."

Christianity, despites the disputes of seperated brethren, can historicaly document itself back to the first century. Wicca and other neo-pagan faiths--we are talking late 20th century creations. One should base one's spiritual path on the fact that one truly feels it is true, objectivly true, not on the fads of the moment that a faith holds certain political or social positions that you are in sympathy with.

"Believe it not because it is true, but for some other reason. That's the game."
-Screwtape Letter #25, CS Lewis
 
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Arikay

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You have to remember though, a couple thousand years ago, im sure christianity was looked apon as a "fad"
Around 500-600 years before that im sure Buddhism was looked apon as just another fad religion (especially since from what I have read, small philosophies and religions were poping up all over the place for those wanting to seek them).

Im sure the older religions at the time thought a similiar thing.
 
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Kira Faye said:
Sorry I was meaning the essence of witchcraft and the basis of wicca was long before christianity...wicca is relativly new..... sorry bad wording...

And how are you to determine that essense? And the logical fallacy that "what comes before is more valid than what comes after"?
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

The Bible, in its original language (i.e. Hebrew) does refer to witches, necromancers, mediums, familiar spirits, etc. But, today's pagans hardly engage in the foul & loathsome rites (burning children to Molech, temple prostitution, etc.) of the ancient Canaanites, Moabites, etc. Also, in the Jewish view, the Torah's many pronouncements against witches, necromancers, etc. do not apply to non-Jews.

One of our Sages said that we must be very, very careful in rooting out sin and touting virtue. We should root out sin in ourselves before looking to root it out in others & tout others' virtues before we tout our own.

While I don't know much about Wicca, I've met more than a few Wiccans on various interfaith boards & without any doubt, I have found them, as a group, to be the most tolerant, patient and unarrogant people I've met on these sites. No Wiccan has ever witnessed at me. No Wiccan has ever told me that I'm necessarily going to hell because I'm Jewish, i.e. not Wiccan. No Wiccan has ever patronized me or treated me as anything less than an equal. And some people dare to call them evil merely because their beliefs are different? As my people say, that's real chutzpah!

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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Kira Faye

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essence meaming beliefs in a way...forgive me its test time, my vocab has by far been shortened...... and thats is such a nice report in wiccans still small voice. makes u feel light and happy. as for claiming its true because it was first would be kinda stupid..they thought the earth was flat first didn't they...they proved that wrong. I am just a bit curious that these beliefs have been around for donkeys year and is a very peaceful loving thing and then it sunddenly turns into a sin.... I mean think about it u help old ladies across the street for years and then a new goverment comes in and tells u its wrong because they say so..it makes u think...
 
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Havoc

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Exerpts from an essay on the subject I wrote some time ago....


The etymology of the word "Witch" is quite well known. It is Saxon in origin and originally referred to practitioners of The Celtic, Saxon, and Norse religions. The word is derived from the Saxon word "wicce" (pronounced wit-cha), from which is derived the Old English "Witche", and the more modern word "Wicca". These "Witches"were the solitary Village healers and spiritual leaders and were apart from the organised religious structure such as the Druids.

The words used in the Old testament and incorrectly translated as "Witch" refer to the practice of some Hebrew Mystics of the time who used "magic" to curse and harm others. The Hebrews had no contact with the Celts or Saxons and so it is ridiculous to think that your God would have warned the Hebrews to kill people they would never have met. The new testament greek refers to poisoners, not Witches. Witches historically were healers, not killers, and were well respected and sought after.

The use of the word "Witch" to mean any mystical practice that is not Christian is a result of the Witch Panic of the late middle ages, from which King James made much profit and derived no small amount of personal pleasure (more on this later). Christian missionaries continued the practice of labelling anything as Witchcraft even if it had no correspondence with actual Celtic or Saxon Witches.

I can imagine a scene a couple of hundred years ago when the first Christian Missionaries were invading Africa.

"Kimibi, tell those people in that village that we have come to enlighten them."

"Yes Bwana, but they won't like it, they already consider themselves enlightened."

"Well they don't have much choice, we'll save their souls if it kills them. What is that man doing there?"

"Bwana, that man is the Village spiritual leader. He is performing the rituals of the faith of these people. It is called, in their language, Ixpltl."

"Oh, you mean witchcraft."

"What is 'witchcraft' Bwana?"

"That what they are doing."

"Strange Bwana, I don't think it has anything to do with the ancient rituals and traditions of Northern European peoples, but hey, you're the missionary"

Let's say, hypothetically, that the early Hebrews had some people with a gambling problem. Perhaps God might have said "thou shalt not suffer those with a gambling problem to live". If King James then said, "hey... Druids sometimes gamble." and proceeded to have it translated "thou shalt not suffer a Druid to live." would this mean the bible tells you to kill druids? Of course not. Nor would you be justified in calling anyone anywhere who gambles a Druid. But that is basically the sort of thing that happened with the word "Witch".

There are several pieces of evidence that show how the word "witch" was not in the original manuscripts of the Bible, nor any word that could reasonably be translated as "witch". The Hebrew word which is translated as "witch in the King James version is "Kashaph" which, according to Hebrew Scholars, means a person who uses sorcery or poison to harm others.We can see from the following that even before King James time the etymology of the word was known.

From The Discoverie of Witchcraft by Sir Reginald Scott. King James attempted to have all copies of Sir Scott's book destroyed as it contradicted his need to have the word "witch" in the bible (more on that later). Fortunately the book was already in third printing
BOOKE VI
Chapter I - The exposition of this Hebrue word Chasaph, wherein is answered the objection conteined in Exodus 22. to wit: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, and of Simon Magus. Acts. 8. page 64) Chaspah, being a Hebrue word, is Latined Veneficium, and is in English, poisoning, or witchcraft; if you will so have it. The Hebrue sentence written in Exodus, 22. is by the 70. interpretors translated thus into Greeke, (sorry-unprintable), which in Latine is, Veneficos (sive) veneficas non retinebitis in vita , in English, You shall not suffer anie poisoners, or (as it is translated) witches to live. The which sentence Josephus an Hebrue borne, and a man of great estimation, learning and fame, interpreteth in this wise; Let none of the children of Israel have any poison that is deadlie, or preparted to anie hurtfull use. If anie be apprehended with such stuffe, let him be put to dfeath, and suffer that which he meant to doo to them, for whom he prepared it. The Rabbins exposition agree heerewithall. Lex Cornelia differeth not from this sense, to wit, that he must suffer to death, which either maketh, selleth, or hath anie poison, to the intent to kill anie man. This word is found in these places following: Exodus. 22, Deut. 18, 10. 2 Sam. 9, 22. Dan. 2,2. 2 Chr. 33, 6. Eay. 47, 9, 12. Malach, 3,5. Jerem. 27, 9, Mich. 5, 2. Nah. 3,4. bis. Howbeit, in all our English translations, Chaspah is translated, witchraft.
The New testament word translated as "witch" is actually "pharmakeia" which means one who uses poisons or drugs. It is the root from which we get our English word "Pharmacy". Of course those Concordances that focus primarily on KJAV will list both words as meaning Witch but that is simply because the KJAV does. Most other translations, most of which are considered more accurate, do not use the word Witch. Here is a cross section reprinted from The Ontario Consultants for religious tolerance.
Interpretation of 19 English translations of Exodus 22:18
Various Biblical translations render this verse as:
American Standard Version "Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."
The Answer: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
Amplified Bible: You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
Good News Version: Put to death any woman who practices magic.
James Moffatt Translation: You shall not allow any sorceress to live.
Jerusalem Bible: You shall not allow a sorceress to live. King James Version: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Living Bible: A sorceress shall be put to death.
Modern Language Bible: Allow no sorceress to live.
New American Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
New American Standard Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
New Century Version: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
New International Version: Do not allow a sorceress to live.
New Living Translation: A sorceress must not be allowed to live.
New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive.
The Promise: Contemporary English Version: Death is the punishment for witchcraft.
Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
Revised English Bible: You must not allow a witch to live.
In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in current common English usage for this verse.

Interpretation of 22 English Translations of Galatians 5:19-20 Various translations of the Christian Scriptures render this verse as a list of "acts of the sinful nature", or "works of the flesh" and specify the following practices:

American Standard Version: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery..."
The Answer: "being sexually unfaithful, not being pure, taking part in sexual sins, worshipping gods, doing witchcraft...."
Amplified Bible: "immorality, impurity, indecency, idolatry, sorcery..."
Authentic New Testament: "adultery, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery..."
Good News Version: "immoral, filthy and indecent actions; in worship of idols and witchcraft..."
James Moffatt Translation: "sexual vice, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, magic..."
Jerusalem Bible: "fornication, gross indecency and sexual irresponsibility; idolatry and sorcery..."
King James Version: "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft..."
Living Bible: "impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, idolatry, spiritism (that is, encouraging the activity of demons),..."
Modern Language Bible: "immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, magic arts...".
New American Bible: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery..."
New American Standard Bible: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery..."
New Century Version: being sexually unfaithful, not being pure, taking part in sexual sins, worshipping false gods, doing witchcraft..."
New International Version: "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft..."
New Living Translation: sexual immorality, impure thoughts. eagerness for lustful pleasure, idolatry, participation in demonic activities...."
New Revised Standard Version: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery..."
New Testament & Psalms: An Inclusive Version: "fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery..."
New World Translation: fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism..."
The Promise: Contemporary English Version: "immoral ways, impure thoughts, and shameful deeds. They worship idols, practice witchcraft..."
Rheims New Testament: "fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts..."
Revised Standard Version: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery..."
Revised English Bible: "fonication, indecency, and debauchery; idolatry and sorcery..."
The key word of interest here is the Greek word "pharmakia" from which the English words "pharmacy" "pharmaceuticals," and "pharmacology" are derived. Interpreted literally, it refers to the practice of preparing poisonous potions to harm or kill others.
So it seems that most modern translations of the bible agree that the words should not be translated as Witch. The KJAV seems to be in conflict with scholars of both it's contemprorary and more modern times.

The timeline for the words also do not fit. The word "witch" is derived from various Celtic and Saxon roots which mean variously "to bend" or "wisdom". According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE. Add to this that "Witch" refers specifically to practitioners of a set of ancient Northern European and British religions whom the hebrews would have had no chance of encountering then it becomes clear that GOD was warning them about something other than a "Witch".

So why was the word changed to "Witch"? Two reasons are given by historians.

1. King James was not a very morally solid man even by the standards of his days. As well as being a sadist and homosexual he had a tendancy toward underhanded dealings. He believed in the "divine right of Kings", in other words Kings were not subject to laws but answerable only to God. The bible in use by common people of the day, the Geneva Bible, contained what is known as marginal notes, something like a side-by-side concordance and commentary. Many of these marginal notes were critical of Monarchs who followed their own version of morality as did King James. He decreed that the Bishops' Bible, a more politically correct version used by the upper Clergy and lacking marginal notes, be used as the basis for a new translation. The "Authorised" version was to follow the Bishops Bible with as little alteration as possible. The Bishops Bible was criticised by scholars of the time as being less correctly translated than the Geneva Bible.

2. King James Made a considerable sum of money as the Chief Magistrate by accusing people of Witchcraft. The Chief Magistrate was entitled to seize the property and holdings of those accused of Witchcraft. If the person was convicted, which they always were under King James,...
One "witch," Barbara Napier, was acquitted. That event so angered James that he wrote personally to the court on May 10, 1551, ordering a sentence of death, and had the jury called into custody. To make sure they understood their particular offense, the King himself presided at a new hearing - and was gracious enough to release them without punishment when they reversed their verdict. (Global Insights)
...the Chief Magistrate was permitted to keep the property and holdings. King James apparently enjoyed the spectacle of torture as well. He personally supervised the torture of many of the accused and even wrote papers suggesting and devising new methods of torture. It was definately to his advantage to make sure his "authorised" version of the bible specifically contained the word "Witch" as that was the commonly used word surviving in Britain from the time when Witches were the Village healers and Spiritual leaders, before Christianity.

So as we see from historical and biblical perspectives the word "witch" was inserted into the bible in order to persecute Witches in Britain. We can see that there are no words in the original Greek and Hebrew in the bible that can reasonably be translated as "Witch". We also see that most modern translations of the bible, barring those which are merely language modernisations of the KJV, correctly translate the words as being other than "witch".

I hope that clears up the misconception that the bible condems Witches by name. Of course the bible forbids Christians from practicing divination etc, but that is a different matter entirely.

Havoc
 
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Volos

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Originally posted by : Lion of Narnia
Sorry Kira Faye, witchcraft was not created before Christianity. What you are experiencing is a composite faith that was created by a retired British bereaucrat in the 1940's and since then has become even further cut & paste theology at the whim of the particular wiccan leader or writer.


You are of course referring to Gerald Gardner. He is creditied for publishing a set of rituals that became the basis for Gardinarian Wicca, and many of the forms he used later spread into what most call modern Wicca. Wicca is not the same thing as witchcraft. Wicca is a set of rituals expressing a spiritual belief and is part of the larger NeoPagan religion. Gardner didn’t come up with anything new and it is pretty easy for anyone who has studied religion to pick out what he borrowed from where.

The theology of the NeoPagan Religions is actually rather well defined and most of us resent things like your “cut & paste theology at the whim” statement. Christian theology differs greatly depending on individual sects of Christianity, compare Eastern Orthodox views on Divinity to Catholic views to Anglican views to Mormon views. I don’t think any religion exists where each and every adherent shares exactly the same theological views

Witchcraft alludes to ancient European religious beliefs and that is about the extent of the "connection", an allusion. Far more direct influences included the discredited anthropology of Gimbutas, Rosicruscian mysticism & popular hermetic traditions (both no earlier than the 15th century, late 20th century radical feminism ( including the man hating lesbian spin of Z Budapest) questionable ecological science transformed to "earth worship", ritualism borrowed from freemasonry ("blessed be" and so "mote it be" are direct borrowings), and hinduism through the theosophy of Blavatsky. Of course wiccans quite often claim their beliefs and practices are ancient but when push comes to shove they take refuge in the post modern rationalizing of Margot Adler and Starhawk; i.e. "if I think it's spiritual and right then it is spiritual and right."


And Christianity and Judaism borrowed heavily from the mythology and ritual of earlier cultures as well.

NeoPagans accept that religion is not the same as spirituality, religion is a human construction designed to express spirituality.

Spirituality is one’s personal relationship with the Divine. Your relationship with the Divine is expressed through your religion (Catholicism right?) my personal relationship with the Divine is expressed through my religion. Both of us end up having a personal relationship with the Divine, we simply take separate routes to get there. The correct route depends entirely on the individual.


Christianity, despites the disputes of seperated brethren, can historicaly document itself back to the first century. Wicca and other neo-pagan faiths--we are talking late 20th century creations. One should base one's spiritual path on the fact that one truly feels it is true, objectivly true, not on the fads of the moment that a faith holds certain political or social positions that you are in sympathy with.

At one point Christianity was less than a century old, were its adherents wrong or misguided then?

I do not know of any religion that can be shown to be objectively true. The only evidence lays with the individual and the individuals spiritual experiences, these are entirely subjective.

I believe I chastised you once before for reducing my religion to the level of a fad, doing so is rude in the extreme. My religion is my religion, please respect it as such.
 
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supermagdalena

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Kira Faye, my point is that it's not the good deeds because no one can, by today's standards, draw the line between good and evil. If you should do what's right in you're eyes, then murder could be right, or anything. So the idea can't be good deeds, because we've all done things wrong, and we've all at a time thought they were right. I'm not saying Wiccans are evil through this, just building a point. God is the judge of souls, but the point is we need help to make the grade. Not the good deeds issue. That's the point of Christianity.

Now, if a Wiccan professes Christ, God's the judge of souls. If their genuine in Christ, and it really is a sin, then it's no worse than other sins committed each day by other Christians. If it isn't (which I'm not quite sure it is yet, I have to do more research here) then it doesn't really matter, does it?

This isn't to say that good works are pointless...faith is followed by works, which are evidence that the faith was genuine.

Hope I'm making some sense there...

God Bless,
-Supermag
 
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Havoc

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I keep hearing a lot about Gardner and how Wicca is so new. While it is true that Modern Witchcraft was started by Garder quite recently, the religion has evolved since then. Thanks to Archeology and Anthropology, and the work of Reconstructionists (of which I am proud to be counted), many Wiccan and Neo-Pagan trads have gone quite beyond what Gardner had at hgis disposal. As a Celtic Reconstruntionist I worship the Gods and Goddesses of my Ancestors in as close a manner to my ancestors as we can determine. I speak the language of my ancestors and I have access to the literature that hasd managed to survive.

The main difficulty in reviving our fatih and obtaining the knowledge of our ancestors is the fact that the Celtic religion was wiped out by the bloody sword of Christianity.

The roots of our religion are older than Christianity. The present day version has arisen despite Christianity's vain attempt to kill it.
 
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Havoc said:
So as we see from historical and biblical perspectives the word "witch" was inserted into the bible in order to persecute Witches in Britain. We can see that there are no words in the original Greek and Hebrew in the bible that can reasonably be translated as "Witch". We also see that most modern translations of the bible, barring those which are merely language modernisations of the KJV, correctly translate the words as being other than "witch".

Citation?
 
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