Wicca:Good Or Bad Final Answers

Originally posted by gunnysgt
Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, King of Kings and Lords-He is the Alpha and Omega!!!!!

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You don't know that for sure, you just have faith that he is. But you really don't know you just think he is. There is no proof.

It took asking about five times the same question to get a somewhat coherent and on topic answer out of gunnysgt, that´s why I am forced to conclude trolling or fear or (don´t want to write something potentially insulting).
I don´t know what fear is? Lol, you have only fear in combat? Perhaps it is equally fearsome to have one death each voluntary emergency paramedic service you attend to for longer than a month.
You don´t post links for fellow Christians, you post links to prove, that Wicca is so bad and evil. While refusing to discuss anything proven to be false or true in any of those links. Wether or not any non Christian is spiritually dead, we will never know. Perhaps it´s true, perhaps it is all but Hindus, who are right and everyone else is spiritually dead. We will probably never know for sure before making that journey ourselves.
Perhaps we should all adopt your style of posting, gunnysgt. You post links, which condemn something and are partially even false, some others post links, which condemn your side, which are perhaps even partially false, too. Then you get more links, others get more links. Intersting message board then.
We all have a mind given by whomever to think for ourselves and articulate us. That´s the point here. To sum an article up in one´s own words and then stay long enough to answer to questions or discuss other views or opinions. You, gunnysgt blatantly refuse to do this. You like to get into the martyr role. First you make statements or post links, that get people worked up, then you get asked about blatant holes in those articles, then you come again post more articles instead of answering questions. Then you simply refuse to address anything asked of you and begin it again. When people realize,t hat you simply refuse to discuss anything, they write about your trolling, closemindedness and fundie attitude. Then you come here again and whine about those mean people who do nothing other than bash you. This is not the behavior, I would expect from an adult, who survived combat and has/had a wife and grown child(ren) and even grandchildren. I know alot of 16 to 18 year olds, who act more mature than you.

Originally posted by gunnysgt
No worrys mate. God's Word speaks clearly of sorcery, witchcraft, divination and the occult.

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Sorry Gunny but I must once again point out that the bible as originally written, as opposed to intentionally mistranslated so King James could make some good cash torturing innocent people, does not speak of Witchcraft.

Originally posted by Lacmeh
This is not the behavior, I would expect from an adult, who survived combat and has/had a wife and grown child(ren) and even grandchildren. I know alot of 16 to 18 year olds, who act more mature than you.

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I thank-you for your very well written commentary on my character, sir.

God's peace and blessings be with you.

Originally posted by Havoc
Sorry Gunny but I must once again point out that the bible as originally written, as opposed to intentionally mistranslated so King James could make some good cash torturing innocent people, does not speak of Witchcraft.

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Why of course, I hadn't contemplated that possibility.

Gunnysgt, I can only evaluate on things I can observe in these fori. I don´t know, how you behave at home, with friends and family. The observable behavior of yours on this site is creating this image. Wether or not to be true is quite another matter. If you don´t like this, then it is time for you to change your behavior.

Originally posted by Lacmeh
Gunnysgt, I can only evaluate on things I can observe in these fori. I don?t know, how you behave at home, with friends and family. The observable behavior of yours on this site is creating this image. Wether or not to be true is quite another matter. If you don?t like this, then it is time for you to change your behavior.

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I post mostly links regarding subject matters vs engaging in endless postings with individuals that don't believe in God(The Father, The Son[Jesus Christ] The Holy Spirit). That is a personal chioce.

I post scrripture from God's Word vs. engaging in endless postings with individuals that don't believe in God(The Father, The Son[Jesus Christ] The Holy Spirit). This is a personal choice.

I post links regarding subject matter from Christians that have a greater knowledge base of various subjects, than I.

I post God's Word for it's wisdom far exceeds that of man.

I post links that I am in agreement with as a Christian. I find them interesting and share them with fellow Christians at ChristianForum. I realize that those that oppose, deny or reject God(The Father, The Son[Jesus Christ] The Holy Spirit) will refute the vast majority of information of the links I list. Once again, my primary aim is to share information with those that profess Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior/Christians.

I post scripture/God's Word that I believe that has something to say regarding various subjects. I know that this is met with some strong objection by certain indivuals that oppose, deny or reject God(The Father, The Son[Jesus Christ] The Holy Spirit). The Gospel of Jesus Christ is offensive more times than not to those that oppose Christianity.

I do not post links or scripture to offend individuals. I post that which I believe to be true according to God's Word which I believe to be authoratative and inerrant. Because this is a Christian Website I choose to post that which is truth according to God's Word vs. the wisdom of man.

As a Christian, I claim no wisdom apart from that which is gleaned from God's Word with the Holy Spirit as the teacher.

Originally posted by gunnysgt
No worrys mate. God's Word speaks clearly of sorcery, witchcraft, divination and the occult.

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Better edit that post... you forgot to print it in bold.

Originally posted by amie
I agree with Havoc on this.  no one has a right to attempt to make someone feel any less due to their personal beliefs. This is his faith, his belief and it is just as important to him as Christianity is to some of us!

I don't follow the same belief system as Havoc but I sure as heck am going to defend his right to believe as he does. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with different beliefs. I think his ideas of having the God and Goddess are just groovy, its not a point of view I share but I can respect him none the less.

Christianity is your faith gunny, my faith, but not superior by any stretch of the imagination...

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I'm behind Amie and Havoc all the way here.

It's ultimately not so much about the tool you pick, but about how you use it.

Waving it around going "my hammer's better than yours" is not the way to go.

Gunny do you have access to firearms?

You know what; on seccond thought I'd be happier not knowing that.

Scripture does not offend a non-Christian Gunny, any more than any piece of fiction would. What offends us is people who, in their arrogance, false piety, and pride, try to tell us that they know the secrets of the universe better than anyone else, with nothing more than a politically and historically repressive religion to base it on. What offends us is people beating us over the head with their mythology.

Originally posted by Havoc
Scripture does not offend a non-Christian Gunny, any more than any piece of fiction would. What offends us is people who, in their arrogance, false piety, and pride, try to tell us that they know the secrets of the universe better than anyone else, with nothing more than a politically and historically repressive religion to base it on. What offends us is people beating us over the head with their mythology.

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I completely agree, Great Post Havoc.

Originally posted by Havoc
Scripture does not offend a non-Christian Gunny, any more than any piece of fiction would.

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The New Gospel: Appealing But Not Revealing


By Jim Elliff



It cannot be overstated that the most pressing issue in the American church at present is the prevalence of unregenerate church members within our ranks. When the current surveys of American life place those who call themselves believers in Christ about the seventieth percentile and climbing, conservative Christians ought to finally awaken to the immensity of the problem. Deception is pandemic. It is as if a modern Constantine christianized the masses while we were asleep.

Spurgeon said, ?Everyone has a religious spasm or two.? More ?spasms? have been taken to be true conversion in our day than perhaps in any other day of our existence as a nation, notably within evangelicalism. We have never looked fatter. But our corpulent appearance is like cotton candy: when you melt it down, there is not much to it. Now we find ourselves struggling over the meaning of conversion. But we have not done our homework early enough and the problem is already out of hand. In message and method we have, in fact, often erred. The sowing of bad seed has produced massive crop failure yet unprecedented statistics. It is getting harder to find wheat among the tares.

It is the complicity of the evangelical church in this deception, either through misinformed enthusiasm or love for repute, that is the most disturbing. We have poured over materials on methodology for bringing people in and used our theology books for doorstops. We have entertained more cleverly than ever before and made the outside world feel good again about the idea of church. We have been quiet enough about sin to make it worth their while to show up repeatedly and perhaps even to join. We have taught them how to act Christian without conviction, to praise God without loving holiness, and, as one has said, to say ?Amen? without saying ?Oh me!? Is it any wonder that when our converts leave the services, they take the pastor?s hand and say, ?It surely is fun to be in this place? rather than ?Surely God is in this place??

I am not saying that God disallows laughter and fun in our lives or that Christians cannot come together to enjoy each other. But I am saying that seeking the face of God turns us in a definite direction which cannot be confused with entertainment or superficiality. Our approach to worship in the States has not only entertained us but unfortunately has presented to unbelievers around us a view of God that is not true. It is a fatal flaw.

There is a product, I am told, called ?Near-Beer.? I am not a beer drinker and have never personally seen a can of this variety. I assume it is a type of drink that tastes like the real but lacks the effects. Perhaps a similar way we have created a ?Near-God.? Can we not say that the God we have created is somewhat like God in appearance but without the effect? He is a ?chummy? God without the ?bite? of holiness. He indulges and never inconveniences. He forgives and never disciplines. His name is Savior but not Lord, except as a title of respect.

Our appeals to the unconverted naturally flow out of our views. We invite them to a happy life without passing on the direct message from the true God that he ?commands all people everywhere to repent? (Acts 17:30) and that he categorically declares ?...without holiness no one will see the Lord? (Heb. 12:14). We are preaching a one-sided gospel. Should we not press home the fact that ?Lord? is not just a title but has been carefully defined by Jesus in Luke 6:46 when he said, ?Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say??

Just how far do we accommodate the sinner before we compromise the gospel? Whatever this relationship is between ?being all things to all men? (which seems to draw more people up to conversion) and holding up the standard of holiness (which seems to drive them away), we know that all true evangelists experience the push and pull of it. Such a pattern can be found in Christ?s ministry. He brought them close by food and miracles and then scared them off by the demands of discipleship and the stark nature of the truth itself (Lk. 14:25-33). That is, he scared off all but the called.

The disturbing thing about the American church in general is that our mentality about evangelism does not reflect Christ?s. We often correctly lead the unbelievers up to the door of salvation but then reconstruct the door wide enough for them and their rebellion. We cannot stand for the truth to create resistance. We have a hard enough time with our image anyway. (Nobody wants to be a leader in the Church Loss Movement!)

For our American churches, the absence of two defining negatives should make us think something is awry:

1. Few, if any, hate us for the right reasons.

Jesus said, ?If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.? (Jn. 15:18-19).

Now I am not saying that we are not hated at all. But for the most part, we are hated for our clownish behavior on some T.V. programs, our constant fleecing of the people, our nineteenth century traditions, and our notorious sins and hypocrisy. We assume that outsiders know much of what appears to be Christian is not really so...but do they?

We have become despised for a few political and social reasons. This is as it should be. It illustrates the point. Conservatives have taken a stand on abortion, for instance. It is of extreme importance. But how many people have hated the church for godliness in our everyday lives? Yet Paul said, ?...everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted...? (2 Tim. 3:13). For such separated living, ?they heap abuse on you,? Peter states (1 Peter 4:4b). We must live at peace with all men ?if it is possible? (Rom. 12:18), but godliness increases the friction often faster than we can oil the friendship. We can thankfully escape the provocations of legalism, but godliness, like it or not, remains a rebuke.

2. Few, if any, are offended by the message we preach.

Polite and clever homilies may comfort sinners, but they do little to convert sinners. We are in danger of making everybody feel so good by our messages that they no longer perceive a need for regeneration. Do outsiders need salvation (that is, deliverance from the penalty and practice of sin and its judgment) or merely sanctified ?how to?s? on becoming more successful? Such messages are appealing but not revealing.

Let me restate this: Our message has paled and become effeminate because it fails to expose the dilemma of the human condition in any convincing way and virtually forgets the judgment to follow. We have preached in such a way as to cause people to say, ?Saved from what?? All that is left is to appeal exclusively on the basis of the proper (indeed, pleasing) psychological adjustment Christianity gives to life. To the degree we move the fulcrum in our presentation so as to give the weight to the psychological benefits, to that degree we remove the offense. No wonder the people want it. It ruffles no feathers. ?For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear? (2 Tim. 4:3). The biblical answer to this predicament is to ?preach the Word...correct, rebuke, and encourage?with great patience and careful instruction? (2 Tim. 4:2).

Let?s face it: our gospel is offensive. The cross and faith are offensive because they take meritorious works and send them packing. Repentance and the call to holiness are offensive because man prefers to run from the light. The narrowness of the door is offensive because it sours people on God?s open-mindedness. God?s sovereignty is offensive because humans like to call the shots. No wonder Paul was straight with Timothy from the outset and said, ?...join me in suffering for the gospel? (2 Tim. 1:8b). It makes sense now why he said, concerning faithful gospel expression, that ?it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him...? (Phil. 1:29). If you are looking for a challenge, join up. Giving the true gospel in its pure form is like feeding liver to a preschooler?no way!

When is the last time you heard or spoke the gospel in such a way that the people said, ?This is a hard teaching?who can accept it?? and then watched them turn on their heels and walk out? Yet that is what they did to Christ (see Jn. 6:60-69). This was not an isolated experience for the greatest evangelist. This persistent clashing of words and world-views continued unabated all the way up to the cross! He brought a sword, not peace. Self-manipulating such violent rejection of the gospel for the sake of proving one?s spiritual verve is unthinkable. Yet we must ask the question: Could it be possible that we have improved the gospel beyond what Jesus ever knew? Can we now outsell the Master?

But this must be seen: On that day, when Jesus ?lost his crowd,? twelve men did stay behind (though Judas for his reasons). They said what every true believer says: ?Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God? (Jn. 6:68-69). And that is the amazing thing. The gospel which is always offensive, mitigating against the fallen nature of man, this holy gospel which is always repelled by the world, found willing admission. Here we find the exception. Here we see some who find this resisted Gospel irresistible...indeed, in it alone they say they find life!


Cont'd

Originally posted by Havoc
Scripture does not offend a non-Christian Gunny, any more than any piece of fiction would.

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Cont'd
The New Gospel: Appealing But Not Revealing


By Jim Elliff



I think we have missed the idea of the gospel. It is not a big flypaper to catch busy executives and unsuspecting children. The objective is not just catching men but glorifying God. We have not said all of what the gospel means when we convince people that our way makes more people genuinely happy than theirs. These gospel words go down hard, and, correctly stated, often seem to be utterly foolish. They appeal to no one except those who are prepared by God. Christ plainly stated: ?No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him? (Jn. 6:65).

Is it not time to speak as viscerally as Paul did, holding back nothing, but lovingly and accurately setting forward the offensive cross? He didn?t give them what they wanted: he gave them what they needed. We can risk such boldness as well. ?Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God? (1 Cor. 1:22-24). Do not worry: the called will find the cross appealing even if the world cries foul.

Must we expect small numbers and churches that are martyrs? hospitals? Yes and no. Yes, if God so chooses, if God allows the spirit of the age to prevail. No, whenever God grants any measure of awakening, however widely, so as to open hearts ?en masse.? God has His seasons for each and His reasons for all.

Have we no longer a category for spiritual giants who have been true to God without all that registers as signs of success in corporate America? Think through our history. There have been sturdy men in shaken times (have there not?), tender men in calloused times, revived men in reviling times. Compelling men in repelling times. We have honored them and the God who made them. We stand upon their shoulders.

Now even though most giants of Christian history would appear short of the goal on church growth charts due to the absolute strictness of their gospel, in all our emulation and reverence for them, there can be no excuses on our part for a lack of zeal or freshness in evangelism. We must not try to reach less people in order to prove our doctrinal correctness. We are not called to be ?soft men in fine raiment,? refusing to soil our hands in the business of knowing and loving sinners just because the gate is narrow.

On the other hand God will not permit the preaching of a half-gospel in this wholly pagan age out of deference to the sinner. The gospel remains a serrated and sharp knife, killing, not just wounding, sinners before the balm is applied. It is not our prerogative to let divine opportunity go unused; nor do we have liberty to dribble out gospel half-truths.

A primitive and unaltered gospel must be preached; the pure and potent God must be known. There must be no more sitcom sermons. We must not reduce the foolishness of preaching to the foolishness of man. Our services can no longer be staged plays to entertain or even moralize in comfortable categories only. We cannot continue to forget sin and hell and repentance and justice and conviction and holiness as if we are more sophisticated than Christ. We must ask again, ?What are sinners supposed to feel in the presence of a holy God??




Copyright 1994 Christian Communicators Worldwide, Inc.
201 Main, Parkville, MO 64152 USA

Originally posted by Havoc
Scripture does not offend a non-Christian Gunny, any more than any piece of fiction would.

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By Phil Roberts


Hell, repentance, wrath, sin, the blood of Jesus, justification by faith alone, Jesus is the only way”—these are words and phrases which do not often receive a warm or ready reception in today’s politically correct world of religious ideas.

Religion, as it is often conceived in the minds of much of the world, is here to make us feel good. To feel good about the world around us, about ourselves and—most of all—about God and our relationship to Him. “Please don’t raise issues which make us feel uncomfortable or leave us without a warm fuzzy feeling,” much of the world might say. “After all, God made us and, if we have faults and shortcomings, then surely He must understand and forgive us.”

But the gospel has a different storyline. It is the narrative of a loving and righteous God—a God who made and created us in His image—to be holy and righteous as He is! And the story goes that in spite of all of God’s goodness to man, man chose, nonetheless, to disobey God. The choice was taken to believe Satan’s lie and in effect to call God less than honorable while partaking of the tree of knowledge—the knowledge of good and evil. Man subsequently fell. Sin and all its consequences entered the world leading to confusion, suffering and the most terrible result of all— separation from God.

If there is sin, rebellion and compromise, these factors certainly cannot be blamed on the Almighty. In fact, while we might be tempted to believe “well, we are only human” and use that as an excuse for our sinfulness, that phrase becomes in fact our condemnation. God created Adam morally perfect, and that is the standard by which He holds us accountable. Jesus Himself was not mincing words when He said, Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).

The gospel in its biblical form, is often initially “bad news” for the 21st century citizen of our planet. It reminds each person of his or her moral failings and of the fact that a righteous God will hold us responsible for all our thoughts, words and deeds.

Also, the gospel is offensive because it reminds us that we cannot save ourselves. Instead, what is needed is trust in God’s mercy through Jesus Christ and His saving work on the cross. Man’s pride is leveled, because, as one hymn writer put it when speaking of coming to God: “Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the cross I cling.” In actual fact, when we approach God, any attitude of self-justification or self-righteousness would obviously be repugnant to Him who understands all that there is to know about us and knows how far we have strayed from His truth and His way.

Is the gospel offensive? You bet it is! It confronts and challenges moral relativism, human pride and self-righteousness and strikes deep at the broad-minded tolerance that attempts to argue that any old religion will work. It grates against the notion that the final judgment will issue in God’s “olly olly, all in free” for all the world. Instead, the cross of Jesus stands alone as the way to God, because it alone provides for the atonement for sin. It was there that God allowed Jesus who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Offensive? Yes, to the natural man. But the gospel works! It does forgive sin, it opens the doors of heaven and brings everyone who comes to Jesus into a personal saving relationship with God. Therefore it is rightly called God’s power—literally His “dynamite” (1 Corinthians 1:24).

Originally posted by Lacmeh
You post links, which condemn something and are partially even false, some others post links, which condemn your side, which are perhaps even partially false, too. Then you get more links, others get more links. Intersting message board then.
We all have a mind given by whomever to think for ourselves and articulate us. That?s the point here. To sum an article up in one?s own words and then stay long enough to answer to questions or discuss other views or opinions. You, gunnysgt blatantly refuse to do this. You like to get into the martyr role. First you make statements or post links, that get people worked up, then you get asked about blatant holes in those articles, then you come again post more articles instead of answering questions. Then you simply refuse to address anything asked of you and begin it again. When people realize,t hat you simply refuse to discuss anything, they write about your trolling, closemindedness and fundie attitude. Then you come here again and whine about those mean people who do nothing other than bash you. This is not the behavior, I would expect from an adult, who survived combat and has/had a wife and grown child(ren) and even grandchildren. I know alot of 16 to 18 year olds, who act more mature than you.

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Originally posted by Marcel


I'm behind Amie and Havoc all the way here.

It's ultimately not so much about the tool you pick, but about how you use it.

Waving it around going "my hammer's better than yours" is not the way to go.

Gunny do you have access to firearms?

You know what; on seccond thought I'd be happier not knowing that.

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Originally posted by Havoc
Scripture does not offend a non-Christian Gunny, any more than any piece of fiction would.

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Originally posted by amie
I agree with Havoc on this.  no one has a right to attempt to make someone feel any less due to their personal beliefs. This is his faith, his belief and it is just as important to him as Christianity is to some of us!

I don't follow the same belief system as Havoc but I sure as heck am going to defend his right to believe as he does. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with different beliefs. I think his ideas of having the God and Goddess are just groovy, its not a point of view I share but I can respect him none the less.

Christianity is your faith gunny, my faith, but not superior by any stretch of the imagination...

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Originally posted by gunnysgt


I post scripture/God's Word that I believe that has something to say regarding various subjects. I know that this is met with some strong objection by certain indivuals that oppose, deny or reject God(The Father, The Son[Jesus Christ] The Holy Spirit). The Gospel of Jesus Christ is offensive more times than not to those that oppose Christianity.

I do not post links or scripture to offend individuals. I post that which I believe to be true according to God's Word which I believe to be authoratative and inerrant. Because this is a Christian Website I choose to post that which is truth according to God's Word vs. the wisdom of man.

As a Christian, I claim no wisdom apart from that which is gleaned from God's Word with the Holy Spirit as the teacher.

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Death by Etiquette

In Matthew 5, Jesus ends the beatitudes with, “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you and say all kinds of evil against you false for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” (Matthew 5:10-12)

Jesus was making a dramatic point that day on the Galilean hillside. That true Christianity came with a price. The disciples and others in the crowd would face turbulent times as a result of Jesus. Not only did Jesus face death, but ten of the original twelve apostles died a martyr’s death because of their faith in Jesus.

The early Christian Church faced troublesome times as well. Israel and its surrounding neighbors fell under the rule of the Roman Empire. The rulers of the Empire, known as Caesars, began to view themselves as God. The Emperor Nero would impale believers on a stake and then set their bodies on fire and use them as lamps for his evening banquets. The Emperor Domitian ordered soldiers to go door to door demanding all citizens to bow and say, “Caesar is Lord.” For believers there was only one Lord, Jesus. Those refusing to say “Caesar is Lord” would face a variety of fates. Some would be carted off to Rome to face the lions for the sheer entertainment of Rome’s citizens. Others would be dragged behind a cart and the sheer journey would bring death. While others were instantly beheaded still some believers were sold into slavery. The words of Jesus truly applied to these believers as they faced ridicule, slavery and even death.

The preaching of the gospel and the life that is lived out when it is believed brings persecution. There is no way to escape it. Therefore, the question that begs to be answered is, if we’re not being persecuted are we faithfully living the life?

The gospel is offensive. Telling someone they are sinful, dirty, and unclean is not a popular message. It is offensive to hear that God is not pleased with you. It does not win friends and influence people when telling unbelievers that upon death they will be cast into hell by a holy God who finds their lives unacceptable. The truth of the gospel is offensive and brings with it persecution. As a result, the gospel is often toned-down. Individuals are told that Jesus wants to be their friend instead of telling them Jesus died to put them in a right relationship with God. Individuals are taught that Jesus will come into their heart and take care of all their problems and they’ll never have another care (a promise Jesus Himself never made). In an effort not to turn people away from the Church, the truth of message is toned-down as to not offend the potential Church attendee. Yet, the truth remains: the gospel is offensive.

Often the gospel is toned-down in an effort to escape criticism. A preacher in today’s society would find himself criticized for saying that people are NOT basically good, but they are basically bad and that’s why there is a need for a Savior. Persecution is avoided by tweaking the message.

Society’s great thinkers, and many times our own people, criticize ministers for proclaiming the truth that people without Jesus will go to hell. The deepest of minds will ask how a God of love can allow His own creation to suffer eternally and then progress to label the preacher who teaches that truth as uneducated and simple minded.

Let us not shrink from our calling. We must proclaim the gospel with love and boldness. Simply because the message is offensive does not mean we have to be offensive. Yet, we must proclaim the message no matter the cost. If we are ridiculed, the message must be proclaimed. If we are jailed, the message must be proclaimed. If our own government passes laws against the preaching of the message, the message must be proclaimed. Why must it be proclaimed? For the God that saved us, commands us to tell the world. Jesus said in Matthew 28, “Go, therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20) The gospel must be preached. The truth must be told. Are we willing to pay the price to preach the gospel? Are we willing to preach a message that may offend some in an effort to save some?

Not only does the preaching of the gospel bring persecution, but so does living it out. We are called to be holy people. In I Peter 1:15-16 Peter writes, “but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, Be holy, for I am holy.” The world doesn’t like holy people. There’s a simple reason: holy people, through the simple living of their lives, expose sin in others.

The Old Testament prophets were killed for pointing out the sin of the nation of Israel. John the Baptizer was beheaded for preaching a message of holiness and for exposing the sickening sexual relationship Herod was having with his dead brother‘s widow. Jesus angered the religious authorities of His time for doing good things that was not approved by the religious establishment. Eventually, the establishment murdered Him. Paul faced prison, beatings with a whip, trials, a shipwreck, he was stoned, and eventually beheaded in Rome. Living a life for Christ has a high price. The price is persecution.

We should never seek persecution. As the people of God there is no need to worry, persecution will find us. Yet it only finds us if we’re living a holy life. The world has no need in getting rid of people that agree with it and live like it. Those who stand for righteousness and live for God will find themselves losing friends, losing jobs, and sometimes losing a spouse.

Does the world really hate us? No. The world hates God. Jesus said in Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.” The world hates us because of our love for God. As believers faithfully living for God we are reminders to the world of their sin and impending doom.

Yet, let’s be honest we often find ourselves living like the world. We laugh at their jokes, find loopholes in the law, and attempt to be “real” people in effort to win their friendship. Often times, etiquette is important than the message. In an effort to be nice and accepting of people believers wink at sin and never speak up for righteousness. Thirty years ago, a young lady pregnant out of wedlock was a disgrace. Today she is a victim and is to be pitied. Thirty years ago, an alcoholic man was seen as a failure in his home. Today we want to know what his father did to drive him to drink.

Somewhere along the way, the church stopped being salt. Jesus said, “You are the salt of the earth.” Ever pour salt into a wound? It burns. Does a young lady pregnant out of wedlock need to be pitied? Yes. She needs love. Yet she also needs to know the price of sin and what God demands of her. Does the alcoholic Dad need therapy? Possibly. But even more he needs a believer to speak the truth to him of how God is not pleased with his own life and to remind him of how he is ruining others. True love for the world is shown by sharing the gospel with it. Not being friends with it. Not offending it. But bringing the saving message of the gospel to it. That is the greatest expression of love.

Let us not shun our responsibility of living holy lives. May we never quit preaching the truth of the gospel. The instant we find it more important to be friends with the world than to reach it for Christ, the church will begin to die. If we laugh at their jokes, approve of the sin, ignore the consequences, and water-down the message the church will die. In an effort to practice proper etiquette and not offend anyone, the church will die. Should the church die, let it be said she died a martyr’s death proclaiming the gospel. May the death certificate never read: Death by Etiquette.


Lighthouse Ministries

Wow did you copy and paste that all by yourself?

I CORINTHIANS 1:18
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I CORINTHIANS 1:19
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

I CORINTHIANS 1:20
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

I CORINTHIANS 1:21
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

Gunny,
more pwer to you, I am sincere...speak of the gospel, great, that is a beautiful thing. put other peoples belief systems down? not cool. Thats all I am trying to say here...

Originally posted by Havoc
Scripture does not offend a non-Christian Gunny, any more than any piece of fiction would.

Click to expand...

The Offense of the Cross
Can We Make the Gospel Seeker Friendly?




By Dr. David J. Vaughan

Church attendance in America has significantly declined in recent years, from 46% of the population to 36%. In response to this trend many churches are scrambling to come up with new methods, strategies and techniques to reach what they now call the "unchurched." In fact, a whole new industry has arisen, known as the "Church Growth Movement," which offers new market-driven advice on how to grow a "seeker friendly" church. For instance, one church growth "expert" claims that millions of baby boomers could be brought into the church if three simple steps were taken: 1) Advertise; 2) Stress product benefits; and 3) Be nice to people.
What we see happening, in effect, is a "mega-shift" away from classical Protestant theology. As Gene Veith has noted, "many evangelicals are proclaiming a touchy-feely, therapeutic god who is light years away from the Holy One of Israel. This is a god of tolerance, who condemns no one and who can be reached by many different paths." Veith also notes that the church growth movement "seeks to build mega-churches by adjusting Christianity to the desires of the culture. Doctrine does not go over well in an age of relativism, so in order to attract new members, theological content must be minimized. Nor do people wish to hear about sin, so the church must cultivate an atmosphere of moral tolerance."
Lest Veith be thought an alarmist, consider the following newspaper story. A church that was trying to attract members came up with this slogan: "Give us twenty-two minutes and we'll give you the Lord." Their Sunday service, called "Express Worship," consisted of a brief scripture reading, after which the audience was asked to write down their own thoughts. A hymn closed the service. The pastor said that the goal was to "restructure the way we think of the service. Not one person delivering the truth to you, but a shared experience."
If asked, the pastor would probably say that he and his church were engaging in "outreach" or "evangelism." But can we really call that evangelism which has no proclamation of the cross?
The reality is, that any scheme of evangelism must take into account what the Apostle Paul calls "the offense of the cross" (Gal. 5:11). Some men will inevitably be offended at the Gospel and will not receive Christ (assuming of course, that Christ is even offered). Indeed, some will even be angered at the offer of God's free grace. But why? Why is the cross-why must the cross-be offensive? For the simple reason that the Gospel, which literally means good news, assumes or declares that man is a sinner; and that, of course, is bad news.
The Gospel is meaningless unless preached against the back drop of sin and judgement. How is forgiveness good news if I have no sin separating me from God? How is propitiation good news if I fail to see myself as the object of God's righteous wrath? Indeed, as the nineteenth-century theologian William Shedd has said, "The love of God needs the foil of the wrath of God to set it off, and make it bright and effulgent...No man knows how absolutely infinite is the mercy of God, unless he first perceives what God might in justice do to him."
Any talk of sin and judgement will simply offend some in our "enlightened" and "compassionate" age. Such talk is intolerant, and intolerance is the the liberal version of blasphemy. But more to point, the Gospel is offensive because it declares man's inability to save himself. This message strikes at the root of man's most basic sin-the sin of pride. Some men will bear being called sinners if they may still cherish the hope of saving themselves; for then they can feign humility (by acknowledging sin) while retaining their pride (in believing they can save themselves). But the offense of the cross is surely this: all have sinned, and the only hope of forgiveness is the atoning death of Christ apart from any human effort. There is absolutely nothing man can do to merit salvation.
There is always the temptation to soften the more offensive aspects of the Gospel in order to make it more appealing. But it is a "grave mistake", notes Dorothy Sayers, "to present Christianity as something charming and popular with no offense in it." Jesus himself "went about the world giving the most violent offense to all kinds of people;" therefore, "it would seem absurd to expect that the doctrine of His Person can be so presented as to offend nobody."
Indeed a "charming and popular" Gospel is really an oxymoron. The preaching of the cross is to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks, foolishness. But unto us who are saved it is the power of God. (I Cor. 1:23,18) While we may indeed offend some, we will likewise, with the blessing of God, win some. For the Gospel is "the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes" (Rom. 1:16).
The duty of the church, then, is to proclaim the crucified Savior, whether men be offended or not. "Surely it is not the business of the church to adapt Christ to men," says Sayers, "but to adapt men to Christ." The cross may offend; but it will also save. Let the church be faithful in its proclamation and God will take care of the growth.