Hoshiyya

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Why is there ALWAYS a thread, and usually more than one, on the MJ front page, challenging the very foundations of MJ ?
challenging the very idea of keeping Torah ?

Is it like this on the other forums ?
If so, is that a good thing ?

Incidentally, it is almost always the Protestants behind it. The Orthodox, Coptic, JW's and others tend to not come here. Muslims, Hindus, Daoists etc basically never come here, and if they do, it is not in a missionary capacity. What kind of strange insecurity drives the Prots to always try to undermine other religions this way ? Can't they just mind their own flock ?

Why are they always inviting us to their "religion", which is impossible to distinguish from atheism ? How is Protestantism anything other than an anti-tradition movement that exists to destroy traditional religions (Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity) and replace them with secularism-masquerading-as-religion ?
 

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I have seen the same on other protestant threads as well. I spend some time fellowshiping with the SDAs and they have the exact same problem.

There seems to be something about Sabbath observance and even minimal Torah observance that really riles up the antinomian attitudes.

But even beyond that, the calvinists and the arminianists are all over each other; the ones that hold baptism to be salvic and those who don't, and the formula of baptism all seem to invite this same kind of tsuris.
 
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Ken Rank

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Why is there ALWAYS a thread, and usually more than one, on the MJ front page, challenging the very foundations of MJ ?
challenging the very idea of keeping Torah ?

Is it like this on the other forums ?
If so, is that a good thing ?

Incidentally, it is almost always the Protestants behind it. The Orthodox, Coptic, JW's and others tend to not come here. Muslims, Hindus, Daoists etc basically never come here, and if they do, it is not in a missionary capacity. What kind of strange insecurity drives the Prots to always try to undermine other religions this way ? Can't they just mind their own flock ?

Why are they always inviting us to their "religion", which is impossible to distinguish from atheism ? How is Protestantism anything other than an anti-tradition movement that exists to destroy traditional religions (Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity) and replace them with secularism-masquerading-as-religion ?
You answered your own question and with one word, "insecurity." Protestants have a hard time accepting anything that doesn't look, think, or act like they do. Throw in a little religious pride ("My way is correct, conform to me.") and we see why there is so much polarization.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Because without interaction atrophy and closed minded thinking take root.

Re-fighting basic battles, re-hashing old arguments over and over, is not constructive.

Is missionizing to and undermining the other religions the only form of interaction the Protestants know?

Essentially / almost all forms of Christianity are missionary, but it is almost only Protestants who come here. Other religions are missionary too, Islam is a big missionary force, yet they never come here to undermine us or challenge us.
 
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Shimshon

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It appears you see your self in a battle of good and evil from the outside in. I see it as from the inside out. Is one absolute truth and the other an absolute lie?

Truth is in the eye of the beholder. it's between them and that which they behold. Your expression of your truth is not the same as others. Should one be expected to change just to interact?
 
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Hoshiyya

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It appears you see your self in a battle of good and evil


No. You could not be further from the truth.

I divide the world into about 9 historical hochkulturen, (essentially the same schema as Spengler uses) all of which have noble, neutral and ignoble manifestations;
but one particular culture has the potential for the highest beauty, being as it is the mirror of Shamayim.
 
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seeking633

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Why is there ALWAYS a thread, and usually more than one, on the MJ front page, challenging the very foundations of MJ ?
challenging the very idea of keeping Torah ??

I am aware of a distinct anti-Judaic bias among certain Christian groups. I do not fully understand it but it may have something to do with a few points:

1. The perceived rejection of Judaism by the early Christian church. This never happened. The real argument was based on how the Christians of Jewish descent expected Gentiles to adopt circumcision. Paul argued, correctly I might add, that this is a false type of faith.
2. The strong adherence of most Christians to the Trinitarian doctrine. I wasn't aware that the Messianic faith excludes this tenet and why. Perhaps you can explain.
3. This may be a bit weird but bear with me. There is an argument that states that those of natural descent from Israel lost their right as the people of God. Personally, I don't believe this either, but there you go.

Does this help?
 
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Lulav

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Why is there ALWAYS a thread, and usually more than one, on the MJ front page, challenging the very foundations of MJ ?
challenging the very idea of keeping Torah ?

Is it like this on the other forums ?
If so, is that a good thing ?

Incidentally, it is almost always the Protestants behind it. The Orthodox, Coptic, JW's and others tend to not come here. Muslims, Hindus, Daoists etc basically never come here, and if they do, it is not in a missionary capacity. What kind of strange insecurity drives the Prots to always try to undermine other religions this way ? Can't they just mind their own flock ?

Why are they always inviting us to their "religion", which is impossible to distinguish from atheism ? How is Protestantism anything other than an anti-tradition movement that exists to destroy traditional religions (Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity) and replace them with secularism-masquerading-as-religion ?
You do realize that Messianics are also considered Protestant? :)
 
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seeking633

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You do realize that Messianics are also considered Protestant? :)

If you don't mind me saying, I think the only Protestants are those members of the sects which arose from the Reformation. As a non-denominational Christian, I do not include myself among them.
 
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Hoshiyya

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You do realize that Messianics are also considered Protestant? :)

No, I do not agree with that categorization. Lutheranism, Calvinism, et al and MJ are two distinct things. But it sounds like you are setting up a semanticist argument and I don't want to waste time on that.

The Protestants themselves are quite eager to tell me their religion is not mine.
 
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Hoshiyya

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I am aware of a distinct anti-Judaic bias among certain Christian groups. I do not fully understand it but it may have something to do with a few points:

1. The perceived rejection of Judaism by the early Christian church. This never happened. The real argument was based on how the Christians of Jewish descent expected Gentiles to adopt circumcision. Paul argued, correctly I might add, that this is a false type of faith.
2. The strong adherence of most Christians to the Trinitarian doctrine. I wasn't aware that the Messianic faith excludes this tenet and why. Perhaps you can explain.
3. This may be a bit weird but bear with me. There is an argument that states that those of natural descent from Israel lost their right as the people of God. Personally, I don't believe this either, but there you go.

Does this help?

Thanks for your reply. To answer point 2, I personally am not a Trinitarian, as my religion is derived from Judaism, which is not Trinitarian.

It seems many Protestants believe Yeshua had to be the creator for his sacrifice to matter, which is a concept not found in scripture.

His sacrifice was the most important thing ever to happen, and no verse in the Bible says that this is due to him being synonymous with the creator.
 
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Lulav

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No, I do not agree with that categorization. Lutheranism, Calvinism, et al and MJ are two distinct things. But it sounds like you are setting up a semanticist argument and I don't want to waste time on that.

The Protestants themselves are quite eager to tell me their religion is not mine.
How we see it and how others see it are two different things.

Basically a protest -ant is one who protests against the teachings of the Catholic church. Now of course there are all kinds of sects that have evolved from this.

The Catholic Church and even the Orthodox Church both claim to be the original, whereas we claim to be the original so there are protests all around!
 
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seeking633

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Thanks for your reply. To answer point 2, I personally am not a Trinitarian, as my religion is derived from Judaism, which is not Trinitarian.

Ah, well there is the argument. The Trinitarian doctrine arose from these Biblical accounts:

1. Yeshuah called himself the son of G-d. Luke 2:49, John 2:16, John 14:2.
2. G-d called Yeshuah His son. Matthew 3:17
3. Yeshuah said that he would send the Holy Spirit as a comforter, a counsellor, and revealer of truth, referring to Him as a person.
John 14:26

But here is subtlety. Yeshuah said that he was YHWH before becoming flesh. So who is the Father? And the spirit of G-d was on the face of the deep in Genesis. Is this the same Holy Spirit?

The Trinitarian doctrine leaves some questions that can certainly confuse.
 
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Hoshiyya

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How we see it and how others see it are two different things.

Basically a protest -ant is one who protests against the teachings of the Catholic church. Now of course there are all kinds of sects that have evolved from this.

The Catholic Church and even the Orthodox Church both claim to be the original, whereas we claim to be the original so there are protests all around!

Protestantism is a form of Christian faith and practice which originated with the Protestant Reformation.

By your definition, "Protestant" essentially means "non-Catholic".

So I guess Scientology is Protestantism, then. But if I said the belief in Xenu is a Protestant belief, you would almost undoubtedly correct me.

It is very clear from how I use the term that Protestantism refers to the forms of Christianity originating in northern Europe in the middle ages. That is how most people use the term.

I already made it clear what this term means in my usage, so let's not get further into the semanticist hole.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Ah, well there is the argument. The Trinitarian doctrine arose from these Biblical accounts:

1. Yeshuah called himself the son of G-d. Luke 2:49, John 2:16, John 14:2.
2. G-d called Yeshuah His son. Matthew 3:17
3. Yeshuah said that he would send the Holy Spirit as a comforter, a counsellor, and revealer of truth, referring to Him as a person.
John 14:26

But here is subtlety. Yeshuah said that he was YHWH before becoming flesh. So who is the Father? And the spirit of G-d was on the face of the deep in Genesis. Is this the same Holy Spirit?

The Trinitarian doctrine leaves some questions that can certainly confuse.


All the angels are called sons of God. If the "trinity" includes every entity called "son of God", then the Trinity certainly includes more than three.
 
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