Why

[JacksLadder]

Why would God create people with free will who he knows before they are made will be sent to hell? Why not just create those who through free will are going to choose God?

 

[Antony in Tx]

Well, now, that wouldn't exactly be free will, would it?

 

[JacksLadder]

Well, now, that wouldn't exactly be free will, would it?

It still would be free will just God would have spared people hell.

 

[MariaRegina]

No one is ASSURED of their own salvation.

However, we know that we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved as long as we keep struggling.

Once we stop struggling against sin and temptation, then our salvation is at risk.

As long as we have breath, we are to repent, trust in God, and pray unceasingly.

 

[Macarius]

Why would God create people with free will who he knows before they are made will be sent to hell? Why not just create those who through free will are going to choose God?

To deny someone existence merely because you don't like the choices they will make is, to be blunt, a terrible evil. You are, in essence, saying God should commit massive genocide because He doesn't like how we use the free will He gives us.

God loves everyone - the evil and the good. He tells us to love our enemies; why? Because He does.

Imagine if your parents didn't like the choices you were making, so they went back in time and decided not to get pregnant with you. That would be, functionally, the same as deciding they don't like the direction of your life and, therefore, killing you.

Would you appreciate that? Even if they were right (i.e. the choices were monumentally bad)? Could that, in any way, be described as a moral thing to do?

 

[SoulFoodEater]

It still would be free will just God would have spared people hell.

The answer must be that God could only have created us this way, because it was the only way. Because just as we are made in His image, and as God is totally free to do what He wants, so we humans, made in His image are free like Him.

The whole reason of why Adam & Eve fell from Paradise was because they started to intellectualize their own relationship with God. So instead of noetic perception (which is the spiritual perception of God), they were caught in a state of intellectualism. Adam & Eve were told by the ancient serpent to start to rationalize their relationship with God and God himself. This rationalization resulted in the Fall of all Mankind from God's Grace.

To this day, I believe that this is why the world is in total chaos in madness; because of people intellectualizing every thing, and so they cannot see God - who is love.

Just look at all of the atheists that are out there today who like to say that God doesn't even exist and who turn away from God. They have intellectualized everything; theories of Evolution. The whole "seeing is believing" concept. This totally goes against the noetic perception of God - which is the spiritual state.

Met. Jonah has a really good talk about how to change from using our rational thinking (being stuck in our heads), to using noetic perception.
The talk is called "Psychology To Spirituality"


I really believe that this rationalistic thinking is the cause of evil from the beginning. Because, why is the Mark of the Beast, the number of a "man"? Procisely because "man" is a symbol of rationalism. When a man rationalizes everything, then he falls away from God and he does not believe God. God cannot be rationalized and so the man falls away from God.... Rationalization was the problem from the beginning.

 

[Protoevangel]

You seem to assume that if all of the people who now choose to go against God's will were never created, that the rest of us would still choose God. Is that REALLY how free will works? What if that isn't the case? Let's say that all of the people who now choose to go against God's will were never created, but now, 60%, 80% or 90% of the remaining people changed, and now chose to go against God's will... because the entire dynamic of humanity's experience has changed? Perhaps, and there is no way any of us can know whether this is true or false, God in his Wisdom has created the perfect balance throughout all of history, to ensure that the greatest number, or the greatest percentage of people on earth do chose His will, and are able to spend Eternity in a loving relationship with Him.

I can't see any reason to think that this is any less likely then your theory that if the evil people were gone, then everybody else would be happy.

 

[JacksLadder]

To deny someone existence merely because you don't like the choices they will make is, to be blunt, a terrible evil. You are, in essence, saying God should commit massive genocide because He doesn't like how we use the free will He gives us.

God loves everyone - the evil and the good. He tells us to love our enemies; why? Because He does.

Imagine if your parents didn't like the choices you were making, so they went back in time and decided not to get pregnant with you. That would be, functionally, the same as deciding they don't like the direction of your life and, therefore, killing you.

Would you appreciate that? Even if they were right (i.e. the choices were monumentally bad)? Could that, in any way, be described as a moral thing to do?

If by the choices I made I would end up in he'll then not having me would be the ultimate mercy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

that depends on what makes hell, hell. God does not send anyone to hell. the unrepentant chooses to go there and stay. all sinners are free to leave at any time, should they repent.

I think something else to consider is that if God is love, He will desire to share His love with all creatures He creates, from rocks to trees to Satan to His Mother to you and me. a God who creates only that which would return His love is not a God of love. there must always be an option for love to be rejected. plus, even when Adam and Eve were perfect in the Garden, they still rebelled. even when there was no sin, a third of the angels rebelled.

 

[TheCunctator]

Why would God create people with free will who he knows before they are made will be sent to hell? Why not just create those who through free will are going to choose God?

Because he loves us like we love our own children.

My parents knew before I was born that I wasn't going to be perfect, that I was going to mess up, that I was going to disappoint them at certain points, and make them angry. But they still thought it was worth it (poor them!), because they love me.

And since we're made in God's image, I think it's a safe bet that God believes the same thing. On a much more intense level.

 

[Macarius]

that depends on what makes hell, hell. God does not send anyone to hell. the unrepentant chooses to go there and stay. all sinners are free to leave at any time, should they repent.

I think something else to consider is that if God is love, He will desire to share His love with all creatures He creates, from rocks to trees to Satan to His Mother to you and me. a God who creates only that which would return His love is not a God of love. there must always be an option for love to be rejected. plus, even when Adam and Eve were perfect in the Garden, they still rebelled. even when there was no sin, a third of the angels rebelled.

This.

 

[SoulFoodEater]

This is dangerous territory for the mind to tread on.

Thinking like this is like you trying to judge God Himself. It can be spiritually fatal.

Just think of the magnificence of God, and how it is that we cannot even understand God Himself except in the person of Jesus Christ.

Its a wonder in and of itself beyond all human comprehension that creation even exists at all. Just thank God for that... Thank Him for being the creator of all.


Listen in these passages in Romans 1; how St Paul blesses God for having been the creator.


He says that because people turn away from these facts - that God is the maker of Heaven and earth - then man becomes darkened and evil.


Again, its an amazing thing in and of itself that God even exists at all and that He brought creatures into existence; how could we judge something we cannot even fathom? God, Who brought creatures from non-existence into existence, and Who is the uncreated One. How could we dare to judge Him?


Give thanks for His creation.


Romans 1

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[Dorothea]

It still would be free will just God would have spared people hell.

As others have said, that wouldn't be free will, but those who never really knew Christ in whatever capacity - whether never heard of Him, nobody told them about Him, or they told about Him in a totally stupid way and turned the person off, will have the chance to reject or accept him when they die their first death - physical from this earth - according to Fr. Tom Hopko on his talk on the Apacolpyse I was just listening to on the way back from St. Anna's retreat.

 

[Rafaela]

This is kind of addressed to everybody that's replied. I have a question. Army Matt said in his post, if I interpreted it correctly, that even in hell one can have the opportunity to repent and be saved.

When I was in grad school for English lit, I did work on these middle English poems about the "harrowing of Hell." In one of them, an especially beautiful one, the writer gave the image of Christ planting the cross in hell so that anyone who would ever look on it and believe could be saved even then. I know that somehow the phrase "Christ descended into hell" has been removed from the Apostles' Creed because of the notion that Christ doing saving work in hell somehow detracts from the work he did on the cross. ?? I'm speaking of Protestant theology, here. Most Protestants I know don't even know that this was one a part of the creed.

Anyways, my question is: is it an Orthodox belief that everyone has the potential--even from hell--to be saved?

 

[Macarius]

This is kind of addressed to everybody that's replied. I have a question. Army Matt said in his post, if I interpreted it correctly, that even in hell one can have the opportunity to repent and be saved.

When I was in grad school for English lit, I did work on these middle English poems about the "harrowing of Hell." In one of them, an especially beautiful one, the writer gave the image of Christ planting the cross in hell so that anyone who would ever look on it and believe could be saved even then. I know that somehow the phrase "Christ descended into hell" has been removed from the Apostles' Creed because of the notion that Christ doing saving work in hell somehow detracts from the work he did on the cross. ?? I'm speaking of Protestant theology, here. Most Protestants I know don't even know that this was one a part of the creed.

Anyways, my question is: is it an Orthodox belief that everyone has the potential--even from hell--to be saved?

It is a permissible, and not uncommon, belief that salvation is possible in hell. It is not doctrine / dogma, though, as many Biblical passages seem to imply that hell is eternal (just as there are a few that imply a universal salvation).

What IS dogmatic is that we cannot assert, as fact, that all will be saved. That would remove free will. It must, at the least, be possible that someone will willfully reject God even into eternity. Otherwise, our love of God is compelled (not voluntary) and therefore not really OUR love - it would just be God loving Himself through us.

Many Orthodox, including saints, prayed actively for the salvation of all of creation - including Satan. We are free to HOPE that all will be saved. Given the infinite love of God, we are free to hope and believe that this offer of salvation extends even into the bowels of hell. Currently, though, hell doesn't really exist. There is Hades (the realm of the dead, which is filled by Christ) and Paradise. The idea of "place" seems a bit odd when not talking about something physical - these are more "states of being" existing between now and the general resurrection (when the New Heaven and the New Earth and the lake of fire will be formed). Hades is where those who, by their way of life here, are unable to know the love of God and exist in isolation from Him - it is a state, then, of torment.

Paradise is the state of being where those who, by God's grace, are able to commune with God in the unity of the faith; these are the saints (both known and unknown) and, united with Christ, we are united with them (so that there is no death in Christ). That's why we ask for their prayers (as we would any living member of the faith).

But we DO teach the harrowing of Hades by Christ - that, in His death and resurrection - He filled the realm of Sheol with His presence and transformed it utterly, offering salvation to all whom it had captured through sin.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[ExOrienteLux]

Well, from what I understand, 'heaven' and 'hell' are just two different names for the same state. After the Final Judgement, God will be all in all, as St. Paul teaches. The love of God will fill all things. If you love Him, what could be more perfect and blissful than to be fully known and loved and to eternally draw closer to the Source of Love?

On the other hand, if you hate God and have spent your whole life turning from Him and following your own self and desires, what could possibly be more painful and tormenting than being eternally loved and known by the Person Who you hate? Add to that the fact that there is literally nowhere to run from Him and it becomes even more agonising. I've heard it said that Hell is light with the Light of Tabor.

The long and short of it is that it may be possible for one to turn from his ways, even after death, but we cannot know. That's why we pray for the dead and ask for the prayers of the Saints and the Church.

Hope this helps.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Anyways, my question is: is it an Orthodox belief that everyone has the potential--even from hell--to be saved?

well, it's never too late for a timeless God, so in one sense yes. every sinner in hell has free will, and God wills that all would be saved. the question of how empty or full hell will become is dependant on how many eternally set their will against God. but that's a question that we will only know the answer to after it happens. the best is for us to be alert for the Kingdom.

 

[Protoevangel]

This is kind of addressed to everybody that's replied. I have a question. Army Matt said in his post, if I interpreted it correctly, that even in hell one can have the opportunity to repent and be saved.

Even those who are not saved can get some relief, even in Hell.

From the Life of St. Macarius:

Once, St Macarius was walking and saw a skull lying upon the ground. He asked, "Who are you?" The skull answered, "I was a chief priest of the pagans. When you, Abba, pray for those in hell, we receive some mitigation."

The monk asked, "What are these torments?" "We are sitting in a great fire," replied the skull, "and we do not see one another. When you pray, we begin to see each other somewhat, and this affords us some comfort." Having heard such words, the saint began to weep and asked, "Are there still more fiercesome torments?" The skull answered, "Down below us are those who knew the Name of God, but spurned Him and did not keep His commandments. They endure even more grievous torments."​

 

[Tzaousios]

Well, from what I understand, 'heaven' and 'hell' are just two different names for the same state. After the Final Judgement, God will be all in all, as St. Paul teaches. The love of God will fill all things. If you love Him, what could be more perfect and blissful than to be fully known and loved and to eternally draw closer to the Source of Love?

On the other hand, if you hate God and have spent your whole life turning from Him and following your own self and desires, what could possibly be more painful and tormenting than being eternally loved and known by the Person Who you hate? Add to that the fact that there is literally nowhere to run from Him and it becomes even more agonising. I've heard it said that Hell is light with the Light of Tabor.

Isn't this basically a summary of Kalomiros' "River of Fire"? His premise comes across as an exercise in wishful thinking or speculation rather than taking a doctrinal stance on Hell. I have not seen many Orthodox commentators who were willing to endorse it.

 

[Rafaela]

Thanks to all who have responded to my question. It has given me a lot to ponder (and maybe research).!!!!