Benedicta00
Well-Known Member
Phileo said:
No, my day is has been going well, a normal hectic as compared to a hectic hectic. Thanks for asking.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Phileo said:LOL Shelb...
well any man who will not be saved, will be of his own volition and not that of a Loving and Merciful God!
BTW how are you doing today, I hope your day has been not too hectic!
John Darby's Synopsis of the New TestamentRomans 9 -
Was God then unrighteous? He plainly declared His sovereignty for good to Moses as a principle. It is the first of all rights. But in what case had He exercised this right? In a case that concerned that right of Israel to blessing, of which the Jews sought to avail themselves. All Israel would have been cut off, if God had dealt in righteousness; there was nothing but the sovereignty of God which could be a door of escape. God retreated into His sovereignty in order to spare whom He would, and so had spared Israel (justice would have condemned them all alike, gathered round the golden calf which they set up to worship)-this, on the side of mercy; on that of judgment, Pharaoh served for an example. The enemy of God, and of His people, he had treated the claims of God with contempt, exalting himself proudly against Him-"Who is Jehovah, that I should obey him? I will not let his people go." Pharaoh being in this state, Jehovah uses him to give an example of His wrath and judgment. So that He shews mercy to whom He will, and hardens whom He will. Man complains of it, as he does of the grace that justifies freely.
As to rights, compare those of God and those of the creature who has sinned against Him. How can man, who is made of clay, dare to reply against God? The potter has power to do as he will with the lump. No one can say to God, What doest Thou? God's sovereignty is the first of all rights, the foundation of all rights, the foundation of all morality. If God is not God, what will He be? The root of the question is this; is God to judge man, or man God? God can do whatsoever He pleases. He is not the object for judgment. Such is His title: but when in fact the apostle presents the two cases, wrath and grace, He puts the case of God shewing long suffering towards one already fitted for wrath, in order to give at last an example to men of His wrath in the execution of His justice; and then of God displaying His glory in vessels of mercy whom He has prepared for glory. There are then these three points established with marvellous exactitude; the power to do all things, no one having the right to say a word; wonderful endurance with the wicked, in whom at length His wrath is manifested; demonstration of His glory in vessels, whom He has Himself prepared by mercy for glory, and whom He has called, whether from among the Jews or Gentiles, according to the declaration of Hosea.
Crazy Liz said:OK, I'm going to be the contrarian voice here. I don't think scripture establishes either that God knows every future event (although God can intervene and make things turn out as God chooses) nor that it establishes that God determines every future event.
The scripture also does not teach that God creates vessels of wrath, destined before their creation for eternal torture.
Romans 9 says if God chose to create vessels of wrath, we would still have no right to find fault with God.
I don't think God created vessels of wrath with that intent. I think Paul was just making a hypothetical argument.
Phileo said:Scripture says God desires that NONE should perish and all should have eternal life.
God never created anything to be destructive... He created all and then He deemed His creation to be good. Being all knowing even as He was creating Adam, He knew that Adam would fall... but why create him or any man when He knew that sin would come into the world?
Being that He is all knowing... He also made reparations for that... The Christ was from the beginning. God does not make our choices we do, but as any good parent He will make the opportunity for His children to make right choices.
He does and the choice is yours.
And my personal belief is that if God made people who were made to be destroyed, wouldn't Jesus' sacrifice on the cross be a waste?
Are we to believed that he died for ALL or All minus a few vessels meant for destruction.
God leaves the choice to us:
Ephesians 1
12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
Miss Shelby said:I think this can be answered by taking the Bible as a whole about what God says on the matter of salvation.
As you know I believe man has a responsibility in that. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that. I, then, have to interpret these verses to fit into that mold.
The Bible speaks of vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction and vessels of mercy prepared for glory. It is my opinion that God is long suffering and not wanting anyone to perish but all to come to repentance. 'All' in an aboslulte sense. I would have to conclude that the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction, were being fitted for destruction due to their own sin and it wasn't God who was doing it.
Why did he go ahead and create them anyway? I really don't know...same reason he created any of us.
Nice seeing you! Thanks for posting this because this is something that I have wanted to delve deeper into, but somehow I put it on the back burner. I'll post as time allows.
Reformationist said:So God desires it but does not ensure that His desires come to fruition? Who is God... the maker of some automatons, it pleased Him to give us a free will. (The operative here is that "ITY PLEASED HIM")
Why? Is He unable to ensure it turns out that way? Surely you jest... I don't know who you are worshipping but my God is ABLE!
If it something God desires then why wouldn't He make sure it turned out as He desired? -He did ensure it... Christ died.
What is your theory? I have no God "Theories - He is God Not a man! His thoughts and Ways are higher than those of your and mind. No Theories just pure trust in Him and that He knows exactly what He is doing. I am not Job... who am I to question the Ways of the Almighty
You acknowledge that God knew Adam would Fall, right? Yes I do
So what happened? Adam disobeyed God.
Was God's design flawed from the beginning? Obviously it was not flawed, if you believe that is was would you not be calling God a liar, did He not deem all that He created to be good?
Did God have the power to create but no power to create according to His desire? He did create according to His desire and design... He wants us to choose Him freely. I notice in your picture... you are holding a baby. I am sure that it is your desire to raise the child to be full of integtrity, what if the child becomes a thief? That is not your will but the childs'. Yet will you be happy if your child was programmed to be a little yes man... doing automatically what he is told... never ever doing anything but you will. (Not me I love the individuality of people... and we only grow by our falls) So in short of Course God can create according to His desire... and HE did! LOLO
So Christ was sent to die to secure the "opportunity" but His life of obedience, even unto death, wasn't purposed to secure anyone's ACTUAL salvation? Jesus died for the whole world... "the gift of God"... How do you get a gift? You take or accept it, if you don't receive it it... it just sits their going unclaimed.
The choice to do what? Sin? Be saved? Whatever you decide... accept the gift or reject it
If God purposed the death of His Son to secure salvation, or the "possibility" of salvation, for all mankind, to include those who had He had created for destruction then, yes, it would have been a waste. The salvation of all of mankind was not His intent though so it's moot issue. The sacrifice of Christ accomplishes exactly what God purposed it for, the salvation of God's elect. Not one of God's elect shall be lost. Not one. Let me ask you something. Was Christ's life and death purposed to accomplish anyone's ACTUAL salvation or was it just to provide the OPPORTUNITY of salvation for all?
Well, are we to believe Christ died for all people, even those who end up going to hell, making His death completely ineffectual in their lives? We're faced with an option here. We can either believe that God accomplishes exactly what He wanted to accomplish through Christ's death, the salvation of those who will be saved, or we can believe He divinely desired the salvation of every single person and was a failure in making that come to pass. Of course this is reliant on you thinking Christ's death was purposed to accomplish ACTUAL salvation. If, however, all you believe is that Christ's death was purposed to accomplish was the POSSIBILITY of salvation then I guess Christ would be successful. However, I believe Christ's sacrifice to be more powerful than giving me the possibility of salvation. I believe He, by His death, ACTUALLY atoned for my sins.
Huh? This says nothing about making the choice to serve God. It is speaking of believers. Look, it says, "Having believed..." Additionally, this speaks of a guarantee, not a possibility. So much for your theory of a "possibility of salvation."
God bless- Since the rest of this is your reformist believe (just us four and no more philosophy, I call it) I will make no comments to it since I am not affiliated with any religious organizations or religion... His grace is suffiecient for me. God bless your quest!
Reformationist said:You know Michelle, I was halfway through responding to post 12 when I realized that not only was I being completely ungodly in my reply I was wasting my time, as is usually the case when responding to you.
So, I want you to feel free to forego responding to any more of my posts in this thread as I will respond to your posts in the only godly way that my sinfulness allows at this point in my Christian maturation, I will ignore them.
Reformationist said:What is man's responsibility in his salvation?
Where does Scripture indicate, or what gives you the reason to believe, that your will is "free?" I know of numerous places wherein we are told that our will is in bondage, either to the sinfulness of our fallen nature or something else?Phileo said:Who is God... the maker of some automatons, it pleased Him to give us a free will. (The operative here is that "ITY PLEASED HIM")
Surely you jest... I don't know who you are worshipping but my God is ABLE!
He did ensure it... Christ died.
He did create according to His desire and design... He wants us to choose Him freely.
Jesus died for the whole world... "the gift of God"... How do you get a gift? You take or accept it, if you don't receive it it... it just sits their going unclaimed.
Whatever you decide... accept the gift or reject it
Well, it's not a "waste" of time. God gives me many opportunities, most of which I fail at, to practice loving someone I find difficult. I apologize for saying it that way. I should have said that I can see how much I rely on my own ability to "outsmart" or "outtheologize" someone and that, thanks to you, I see that doing so shows my lack of faith in the One that I so proudly claim as sovereign. Again, I apologize. I did not mean it the way you took it, or if I did, I was wrong to mean it that way.Shelb5 said:Seeing how I did nothing to deserve a ungodly response, thanks for that. I have no idea why you would have to reply to me in an ungodly way, I don't think I said anything to you to warrant such a response, but I do appreciate your restraint. However, I am sorry you see interacting with me such a waste of your time.
By all means, continue to contribute. And, the reason that this thread, and the other, are spin offs of statements you made is because I debate more on this MB with you than with anyone else. You just seem to get under my skin a bit more than anyone else too. I guess you're like my sister in more ways than one, huh?If you remember, you made this whole thread (and another one that is currently active) as a spin off from a post of mine, from a statement that I made in another thread. So I do feel I have the right to participate. If you wish to ignore me, then do what you must so you wont succumb to the temptations to respond ungodly, I understand but I will be posting if I feel I have something to contribute.
As inspiring as the 15th chapter of John is, what does that have to do with salvation?Shelb5 said:
1
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
2
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.
3
You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
4
Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
6
Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.
7
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
8
By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.
9
As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love.
10
If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love.
11
"I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete.
12
This is my commandment: love one another as I love you. 13
No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends.
14
You are my friends if you do what I command you.
15
I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master is doing. I have called you friends, because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father.
16
It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you.
17
This I command you: love one another.
Our responsibility to our salvation is to love one another as Christ loves us and how does God love us? Freely.
Reformationist said:As inspiring as the 15th chapter of John is, what does that have to do with salvation?
Um...John 15 isn't about our salvation. It's about being godly and living lives worthy of what we are, saved. I'll ask you again, what do you think the 15th chapter of John has to do with salvation?Shelb5 said:You asked what is our responsibility to our salvation. It is to remain in Christ and to bare fruit, the fruit we are to bare is evangelical love for one another. Love is how the world will know that we are His disciples, we remain in Him and He who lives in love, lives in God and God lives in Him.
Great. I agree with all this but it doesn't have anything to do with salvation, at least not with getting or maintaining it. All of these godly resposes are the result of our salvation, not the means to getting or keeping it. What part of what you posted makes you think otherwise?All of this takes choice and love comes from God, we did not chose Him, he chose us and true love develops in response to His call, His love. Remaining in Christ and loving as He loves takes a choice on our part but never apart from Gods call and grace and the Christian can only develop true evangelical love (a love that saves by evangelizing Christ, being like Him) for their neighbor if they remain in Christ because apart from Him we can do nothing.
Michelle, I never said we didn't have a choice. We do have a choice. The choice that the unregenerate make is to reject God.Im sure you agree, but you think you never had a choice in the response unless God sovereign chose you to have that response and he did chose you
If He chose all of us and only some respond what purpose did His choosing us serve? It obviously didn't make us embrace the Gospel. That's a moral choice you feel we all are free to make. So, what did God's choice of us facilitate?He chose all of us here but there are some out there that reject the call to enter into His love.
The argument that we love Him freely because we are made like Him falls apart unless you are saying that only those who have been born again are made like Him. Otherwise, you're saying that those who reject God are made in God's image too which contradicts your theory that we love Him freely because we are made like Him. If being made like Him causes us to love Him freely then ALL who are made like Him would love Him freely.He loves freely and so do we because we are like Him, we were made in His image and likeness.
Well, it's not a "waste" of time. God gives me many opportunities, most of which I fail at, to practice loving someone I find difficult. I apologize for saying it that way. I should have said that I can see how much I rely on my own ability to "outsmart" or "outtheologize" someone and that, thanks to you, I see that doing so shows my lack of faith in the One that I so proudly claim as sovereign. Again, I apologize. I did not mean it the way you took it, or if I did, I was wrong to mean it that way.
That's a good story and I appreciate the encouragement.Shelb5 said:Don,
Let me tell you a little story I heard from a priest. Married folk, as I am sure you know have much to repent over daily. Forgiving and being forgiven when we are sharing our lives with another is repetitive.
Well the priest says that the elderly who have lost their spouse, whose children are grown with their own families, will come to the sacrament of confession because that is what they believe they are to do but since their spouse has gone before them and their children are out the house, they have nothing to confess.
Did they all of a sudden become perfect, does this mean they all of a sudden became forgiving, became patience? Did they change? No, they just no longer have any opportunity to be patience, to be forgiving, to be loving.
God created us as social beings, we learn to be like Christ by interacting with one another. His Church is a community, a body of people (and yes that includes all Christians) we learn to grow in holiness, and we are conformed into Christ image by Him giving us opportunities to be like Him.
That takes denying all that our flesh holds worth while to us. Letting go and dyeing to ourselves but since Jesus is the resurrection and the life, Christians rise when we die to self and when we do, day by day we are freed each time we deny our flesh. We are being freed, free to live in Gods grace. John the Baptist said, I must decrease, He must increase.
So my point is, if you didnt have these temptations that God graciously allows you, you would not be able to develop the patience you seek, so consider stopping your post as a victory. Nothing happens by chance, God placed us together so we can help one another over come our vices that block our spiritual growth and hold us bound to our emotions and our will. We are miserable when we encounter this because we are slaves to ourselves but the good news is God wants to free us.
The argument that we love Him freely because we are made like Him falls apart unless you are saying that only those who have been born again are made like Him. Otherwise, you're saying that those who reject God are made in God's image too which contradicts your theory that we love Him freely because we are made like Him. If being made like Him causes us to love Him freely then ALL who are made like Him would love Him freely.
Why does one reject and one accept? If we are all made in His likeness and we compare two who have not yet made a decision either for or against the Lord, what makes one person accept and another reject?Shelb5 said:But man is free, he can reject if he choses.
I would have to cut and paste half of the New Testament alone to show you that. In a nutshell it has to do with repenting, abiding and remaining. I believe these warnings are issued by God in a very urgent manner, and in the present tense. Giving that --it would be my opinion that they pertain to salvation. If they didn't, why the urgency? Why the warnings about being cut off and thrown into the fire or devoured by wolves? Why wouldn't He have been a bit more lax in His wording?Reformationist said:As do I.
What is man's responsibility in his salvation?
What I believe is happening here is that God is giving these vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction over to their sin. He is stepping back and having nothing to do with it.I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying but, just for the record, I don't believe that God is either doing the sinning or forcing those who sin to sin.
I would agree with you when he talks about vessels of mercy. But the vessels of wrath I think the verb is passive there, I do not think that God is doing the acting there. I think the action lies in the heart of the vessel being fitted for destruction.I believe man freely chooses to sin. In fact, I think sinning is man's natural response to the holiness of God. However, "fitted for destruction," in no way, implies that it is based on events later in the life of the creation. It does, however, imply that they were prepared for that purpose. The word that is rendered "fitted" is "katartizo {kat-ar-tid'-zo}." It means "to prepare; make one as one ought to be." It does not mean to create one from a reactionary perspective. It's a causal word, not a reactionary one.
I think that whole chapter speaks of God's sovereinity, but also of His mercy.Don't you think that makes God's creating them an exercise in futility, not to mention contrary to His sovereign power of creation? I'm not sure why you think the rest of us were created but my belief is that we were created to worship Him. If God, knowing they would not worship Him, created them for that reason then it seems a bit pointless, and I can't personally imagine God doing something pointless. Additionally, God is the Creator of all things created. If God created them to worship Him then why wouldn't they have turned out as He planned? Is God impotent to create something and it turn out the way He intended? That would make God weak and unworthy of praise. Additionally, Scripture makes it clear that God creates, FROM THE SAME LUMP OF CLAY, some for honor and some for dishonor. This clearly shows that God is in control of determining the purpose for which a person is created, and it is not the same for everyone. Are you willing to believe that God could create someone for honor and despite His intention they turn out as vessels of dishonor? I could not even fathom such a thing.
As for why, if all humanity was created to worship God, why do they not? This is the crux of our disagreement. I believe He desires all men to do that but not all men will. I don't think this diminishes God's power in any way, as you think that it would, but that He loves us enough to let us choose Him.What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory,
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?