Why...

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Hey, neato--an argument in OBOB with which I've had absolutely nothing to do! Who'd a thunk??

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

There is a difference between trying to understand why people do what they do--seeing things from another person's perspective---and saying that their choices are morally good.

Trying to empathize, and really understand another's POV, helps us to reach out to them effectively--as well as helps us to grow in compassion. What good does it do me to recognise evil, if I cannot effectively minister to the people involved because all I want to do is stand there and say "You are evil! You are evil!"

and that's all I've got to add

 

[benedictaoo]

Why would you continue to interact with a forum whose atmosphere you hate? That's got to be a major source of unnecessary stress.

That is exactly it. Why do these posters hang out in OBOB? Some just disconnected a long time ago from the Church but still hang out to do only God knows what and others, I suspect they are trying to modernize and make the Church "progressive" so they do what they can to promote that.

 

[CathNancy]

That is exactly it. Why do these posters hang out in OBOB? Some just disconnected a long time ago from the Church but still hang out to do only God knows what and others, I suspect they are trying to modernize and make the Church "progressive" so they do what they can to promote that.

I was speaking with my youngest son yesterday and he asked if the Church should change since society has changed. My reply was that if we believe that the faith and morals the Church upholds came from God, should the Church change to meet society or should she continue to hold to the truths God has given us? He did agree that if the Church believes that God gave these faith and morals, then yes the Church should hold to what God says and not society. IMO if making the Church "progressive" it involves changing to meet the wants of society and not the commands of God, then God is no longer with us. For me, the fact that the Church will not change because some wish it, is an examplet that the Catholic Church is still led by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised, and He will not abandon us. Good and evil do not change, what was evil 2000 years ago is still evil, no matter what society says.

Peace,
Nancy

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

That is exactly it. Why do these posters hang out in OBOB? Some just disconnected a long time ago from the Church but still hang out to do only God knows what and others, I suspect they are trying to modernize and make the Church "progressive" so they do what they can to promote that.

I might be wrong here-but I think he was addressing you.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I was speaking with my youngest son yesterday and he asked if the Church should change since society has changed. My reply was that if we believe that the faith and morals the Church upholds came from God, should the Church change to meet society or should she continue to hold to the truths God has given us? He did agree that if the Church believes that God gave these faith and morals, then yes the Church should hold to what God says and not society. IMO if making the Church "progressive" it involves changing to meet the wants of society and not the commands of God, then God is no longer with us. For me, the fact that the Church will not change because some wish it, is an examplet that the Catholic Church is still led by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised, and He will not abandon us. Good and evil do not change, what was evil 2000 years ago is still evil, no matter what society says.

Peace,
Nancy

Amen.

 

[WarriorAngel]

We so often remember only the Mercy of the Lord and forget His Justice.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

We so often remember only the Mercy of the Lord and forget His Justice.

They are not separate and distinct attributes. They do not exist in isolation. God's justice demands that we shall be judged on just how weak we are, just how bound our hands have been by our wounds and defects and concupiscence, just how limited our knowledge (created as humans and not angels) truly is. God's justice is not in opposition to HIs mercy--rather His justice and mercy are one in the same. God is indivisible and we do Him an injustice to separate out parts of Him to serve our purposes.

 

[ZuZu]

That is exactly it. Why do these posters hang out in OBOB? Some just disconnected a long time ago from the Church but still hang out to do only God knows what and others, I suspect they are trying to modernize and make the Church "progressive" so they do what they can to promote that.

I like many of the people here and I'm not trying to modernize or change anyone. Why do you seem so angry all the time....not everyone has an ulterior motive....

 

[CathNancy]

They are not separate and distinct attributes. They do not exist in isolation. God's justice demands that we shall be judged on just how weak we are, just how bound our hands have been by our wounds and defects and concupiscence, just how limited our knowledge (created as humans and not angels) truly is. God's justice is not in opposition to HIs mercy--rather His justice and mercy are one in the same. God is indivisible and we do Him an injustice to separate out parts of Him to serve our purposes.

All of this is true Shannon, and this is why we are not to judge the individual, only God can judge because only He can know the heart. However, just because many live together without marriage, does not make it moral, just because women have the right to abort a pregancy does not mean that it is not the killing of unborn children, just because there are those who accept homosexuality as an acceptable alternate lifestyle does not make it acceptable to God. Should we speak out against what is wrong in the sight of God, yes, should we judge those who practice what we know to be wrong, no. God in His infinite mercy will judge each of us and I for one pray for mercy when He judges me.

Peace,
Nancy

 

[WarriorAngel]

They are not separate and distinct attributes. They do not exist in isolation. God's justice demands that we shall be judged on just how weak we are, just how bound our hands have been by our wounds and defects and concupiscence, just how limited our knowledge (created as humans and not angels) truly is. God's justice is not in opposition to HIs mercy--rather His justice and mercy are one in the same. God is indivisible and we do Him an injustice to separate out parts of Him to serve our purposes.

Ppl cling to His mercy while they refuse to give up their sins. That's OSAS... imho.

So yeah, we dont recall His warnings of His Justice and we continue to test Him.

Distinct or not - hell is His Mercy too, but its not something we should endeavor to receive.

Is purgatory a fun filled place?
No - according to many mystics it is terrifying and painful. And yet so many go there who remained indifferent to the graces to abstain from sins.

Saints are saints because they made a daily effort to abstain from all sorts of pleasures and vices of the world.

And His Justice is to purge us instead of send us far from His sight to hell.

Does He want this? NO.
To say He does would make Him sadistic.

Will He do this?
Yes He will.

Having read former and recent mystics accounts [including Myrna Nazzour] its not so simple to say we believe and then condone sins - for we become accountable for our words and actions that are passively allowing others to continue onwards on a path of destruction.. Or being agreeable to those who sin and truly seek admonition from us. The Apostles never condoned an evil action - nor did they make excuses for sins. They told it like it was - even til death for doing so.

'I'm ok, you're ok', doesnt exactly fit the messages from Jesus.

SEEK mercy and it will be given, but ignore Him and continue to dance thru the tulips without regard to repentence and contrition because you excuse yourself of your faults is by no means what He meant.

That doesnt mean we stone ourselves for our sins, but we truly give them up and allow grace to transform us [AS PAUL SAID - TO BECOME A NEW MAN]...but if we wallow in our sins and claim them til our own end without struggling and refusing to succumb to them, then we will meet His Justice - which God willing is ONLY purgatory.
http://www.barnsleyfencingclub.org.uk/images/Fencing2.gif

 

[WarriorAngel]

. Or being agreeable to those who sin and truly seek admonition from us.

I meant admonishment.

 

[CathNancy]

Since I can only speak for myself, I will say that often in my life I have tried to rationalize my sins, making excuses, but deep in my heart I knew that they were wrong and eventually, through the grace of God I repented. The secular world is very good at providing us with reasons why it is okay to behave in ways that are not acceptable to God.

Peace,
Nancy

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

All of this is true Shannon, and this is why we are not to judge the individual, only God can judge because only He can know the heart. However, just because many live together without marriage, does not make it moral, just because women have the right to abort a pregancy does not mean that it is not the killing of unborn children, just because there are those who accept homosexuality as an acceptable alternate lifestyle does not make it acceptable to God. Should we speak out against what is wrong in the sight of God, yes, should we judge those who practice what we know to be wrong, no. God in His infinite mercy will judge each of us and I for one pray for mercy when He judges me.

Peace,
Nancy

Ppl cling to His mercy while they refuse to give up their sins. That's OSAS... imho.

So yeah, we dont recall His warnings of His Justice and we continue to test Him.

Distinct or not - hell is His Mercy too, but its not something we should endeavor to receive.

Is purgatory a fun filled place?
No - according to many mystics it is terrifying and painful. And yet so many go there who remained indifferent to the graces to abstain from sins.

Saints are saints because they made a daily effort to abstain from all sorts of pleasures and vices of the world.

And His Justice is to purge us instead of send us far from His sight to hell.

Does He want this? NO.
To say He does would make Him sadistic.

Will He do this?
Yes He will.

Having read former and recent mystics accounts [including Myrna Nazzour] its not so simple to say we believe and then condone sins - for we become accountable for our words and actions that are passively allowing others to continue onwards on a path of destruction.. Or being agreeable to those who sin and truly seek admonition from us. The Apostles never condoned an evil action - nor did they make excuses for sins. They told it like it was - even til death for doing so.

'I'm ok, you're ok', doesnt exactly fit the messages from Jesus.

SEEK mercy and it will be given, but ignore Him and continue to dance thru the tulips without regard to repentence and contrition because you excuse yourself of your faults is by no means what He meant.

That doesnt mean we stone ourselves for our sins, but we truly give them up and allow grace to transform us [AS PAUL SAID - TO BECOME A NEW MAN]...but if we wallow in our sins and claim them til our own end without struggling and refusing to succumb to them, then we will meet His Justice - which God willing is ONLY purgatory.

Morality is not subjective--but sinfulness is. Will we make a greater difference just telling people "You're a sinner!!!" or by trying to understand their point of view and the why behind their actions, and then addressing them out of that knowledge? Yes, we are called to share the Gospel with all people, but that Gospel message doesn't stop at a list of sins--it also at the same time includes loving one another, a call to freedom, and a willingness to suffer for one another.

The Gospel message in it's essence is one of "I'm not okay, you're not okay--we're all broken people in need of a Saviour--and that Saviour loves you infinitely and irrevocably"

That you can't more flies with honey than vinegar applies rather well. Fear can only motivate a person so much--or oftentimes it makes them shut down--whereas love motivates us to grow and reach beyond our perceived capacity. Do we love the sinner? And if we say yes to that--doesn't love necessitate trying with all of our ability to actually understand and to get to know the person?

Becuase all to often "Love the sinner"-means that we really are just dismissive of them. If we truly care about being instrumnents of the Holy Spirit which might be used to draw others out of sin--we will first have to be willing agents of that other person's healing.

 

[benedictaoo]

I like many of the people here and I'm not trying to modernize or change anyone. Why do you seem so angry all the time....not everyone has an ulterior motive....

Okay Karin, look, for what ever reason you always think I am speaking directly to you. I'm not and i have never, not one time had you in mind ever when I posted anything.

I am not angry with you, I don't even know you as a member. For the record, I do not think you are trying to do anything.

I have clarified myself numerous times to you. I do not have an issue with a person who just can't get behind the teachings and feel they must humbly dissent. I have problem with folks who openly dissent and who actively want others to get on board with that dissent.

I can't be more clear. I really can't. I am not out to get you nor do I think you are "that way."

 

[benedictaoo]

Ppl cling to His mercy while they refuse to give up their sins. That's OSAS... imho.

So yeah, we dont recall His warnings of His Justice and we continue to test Him.

Distinct or not - hell is His Mercy too, but its not something we should endeavor to receive.

Is purgatory a fun filled place?
No - according to many mystics it is terrifying and painful. And yet so many go there who remained indifferent to the graces to abstain from sins.

Saints are saints because they made a daily effort to abstain from all sorts of pleasures and vices of the world.

And His Justice is to purge us instead of send us far from His sight to hell.

Does He want this? NO.
To say He does would make Him sadistic.

Will He do this?
Yes He will.

Having read former and recent mystics accounts [including Myrna Nazzour] its not so simple to say we believe and then condone sins - for we become accountable for our words and actions that are passively allowing others to continue onwards on a path of destruction.. Or being agreeable to those who sin and truly seek admonition from us. The Apostles never condoned an evil action - nor did they make excuses for sins. They told it like it was - even til death for doing so.

'I'm ok, you're ok', doesnt exactly fit the messages from Jesus.

SEEK mercy and it will be given, but ignore Him and continue to dance thru the tulips without regard to repentence and contrition because you excuse yourself of your faults is by no means what He meant.

That doesnt mean we stone ourselves for our sins, but we truly give them up and allow grace to transform us [AS PAUL SAID - TO BECOME A NEW MAN]...but if we wallow in our sins and claim them til our own end without struggling and refusing to succumb to them, then we will meet His Justice - which God willing is ONLY purgatory.
http://www.barnsleyfencingclub.org.uk/images/Fencing2.gif

Exactly. This is Catholic. These days Catholicism is so not spoken of. It's bleeding heart, struggling, can't do it, yadda, yadda, yadda.

We really need to get back to posting the truth.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Exactly. This is Catholic. These days Catholicism is so not spoken of. It's bleeding heart, struggling, can't do it, yadda, yadda, yadda.

.

You mean bleeding heart-like this one:

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

The thing about Catholicism is that it is the fullness of Truth....the reality is that few people want to be confronted with the fullness of Truth , and prefer their own little corner and expression of Truth where they feel comfortable and where it's expression is sensually satisfying to them.

The harsh and dour Christian living out the fullness of Truth--doesn't exist. Just as the Christian who is unconcerned for souls of those entrenched in sin --doesn't exist.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Morality is not subjective--but sinfulness is.

How so if one begets the other?

Will we make a greater difference just telling people "You're a sinner!!!" or by trying to understand their point of view and the why behind their actions, and then addressing them out of that knowledge?

I ask for clarification in most instances, but i am not going to try to understand their pov or i would still be stuck on figuring out Hitler.

Sin is sin... and we cannot coddle the sin, even if we love the sinner.

I would rather not go there [understanding it] - so to speak, but instead lift them out of the sin thru admonishment and counsel. Which is a sign of the deepest love. If it were not, then why did the Apostles give up everything to ensure they didnt mince words so as to save others?

Yes, we are called to share the Gospel with all people, but that Gospel message doesn't stop at a list of sins--it also at the same time includes loving one another, a call to freedom, and a willingness to suffer for one another.

I dont know about you hon, but offering sage advice against sinning is not looked upon as a virtue. Its actually most often condemned by society as some sort of ZEALOT. [which isnt all that bad really coming from my own perspective]
Sure there are certain ways to apply the message - which is what i think you might be getting at...
However; i need that clarified.
Otherwise we could seasaw this all day.

The Gospel message in it's essence is one of "I'm not okay, you're not okay--we're all broken people in need of a Saviour--and that Saviour loves you infinitely and irrevocably"

See, therein we disagree. This is the very backbone of OSAS...which Paul tells us we must run the race to win. He even made it cryptic when he said there is but one winner.

So its not as easy as we wish it were.

Take time to read the Saints and their visions of purgatory.
Its really sobering - and will swiftly kick your butt [everyone's who reads it] into gear to try and try to avoid sins that will become massive if we continue them onwards and upwards with culpablility.
Catholics have the most culpability because we have the MOST from God.

Turning away from it wont help us either - it only renders us worse yet.

Actually in modern day speak Romans would say 'Dont kid yourself, sinners of the worst magnitude who kill, commit adultery, are into homosexual activity, thieves and so forth are NOT getting into Heaven...no matter what faith they proclaim they are and this includes those who agree with this stuff..'

So there is definitely a line drawn and its not so easy to say 'I believe so I am saved' because it doesnt work like that...many woefully discovered.

That you can't more flies with honey than vinegar applies rather well. Fear can only motivate a person so much--or oftentimes it makes them shut down--whereas love motivates us to grow and reach beyond our perceived capacity. Do we love the sinner? And if we say yes to that--doesn't love necessitate trying with all of our ability to actually understand and to get to know the person?

Too much honey will spoil the recipe....as well as too much vinegar.
It has to be a pinch and the majority must be truth.

Yes we need charity or our message comes off as offensive...
But still, let us always give the truth in the face of being repudiated for doing so.

Yet as Paul does say - if we have faith without charity [love] we are pretty much an empty gong.

There is a middle ground somewhere and we have to feel around for it.

Becuase all to often "Love the sinner"-means that we really are just dismissive of them. If we truly care about being instrumnents of the Holy Spirit which might be used to draw others out of sin--we will first have to be willing agents of that other person's healing.

IMO - we are only dismissive if we drop the ball when they are in need.

Being in need is desperately in need of admonishment vis love.
We know this because even children who are never taught bad from good or good from bad will do as they please leading them into all sorts of bad situations.

So its as always something that we have to construct carefully to ensure our love shines forth first and the message then can be heard.

I dont think we are disagreeing - but i think our personalities seem so different. But the true message is - teach them via love which can often times be tough love - so as to render an account for their souls.

I dont condone hurting ppl - never did.
I just believe in avoiding anything too personal that would be cruel.

That often times means i cut to the chase and avoid personal conjecture - which i suppose i have to work on.

 

[benedictaoo]

Sometimes, you just have to be cruel to be kind...

y'all remember that song?