Why.

[DArceri]

Icons (images) in the OT:

Exd 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Exd 26:31 ¶And thou shalt make a vail [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:

Exd 27:16 ¶And for the gate of the court [shall be] an hanging of twenty cubits, [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework: [and] their pillars [shall be] four, and their sockets four.

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.


They aren't idols. We don't worship them. We just don't see that Saints as dead. They are with Christ, as the angels are, and having a picture of them during worship... we are joined with them. We worship together. We no more worship them than the Jews worshiped the Cherubs on the tapestries.

We inherited this from Judaism too. But you probably know more about that than I do.

Forgive me…

Having images IS NOT idolotry, HOWEVER, burning incense to them and also bowing down to them is idolotry.

Ex 20:4 ...... You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God.

NOTE:
The very images that Moses was commanded to make in Exodus verses you mentioned above....God WAS PLEASED that the images were destroyed...

NOW WHY? The image itself was ok, but worshiping and burning incense to that image WAS CONSIDERED IDOLOTRY BY GOD.


If you go to 2 KINGS you will see centuries later Israel took that very image and started burning INCENSE TO IT.

2 KINGS 18
3 And he did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, according to all that David his father had done. 4 He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan). 5 He trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel, so that there was none like him among all the kings of Judah after him, nor among those who were before him. 6 For he held fast to the LORD.


NOTE, INCENSE IS AN ACT OF WORSHIP!!!!!! ...In Ps 141 we see David offer prayer to the Lord and what does he say?

Ps 141:2
Let my prayer be counted as incense before you,
and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!

David equates offering incense to that of worshiping....

Also incense is mentioned as an act of worship in The Book of Revelation:

Rev 5:8

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.



BOTTOM LINE, WE ARE NOT THE ONES WHO DETERMINE WHAT IS WORSHIP AND WHAT IS NOT WORSHIP TO AN IMAGE ....GOD DETERMINES THAT...... SO BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU BOW DOWN, BURN INCENSE, OR EVEN KISS AN IMAGE!!!!!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

We don't bow down to them... We don't burn incense to to them. Nor.. did the Jew bow down to the Cherubs or burn incense to them.

We bow down before God. We burn incense to God. The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit, one in essence.

Forgive me...

 

[E.C.]

Ooh, ooh, ooh, I know this one pick me, pick me!

Father Seraphim Rose!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

We have a winner!

Reps, or blessings?

BTW ~ Without the Church’s Liturgy… we would not have retained this history.

Forgive me...

That is absolutely true.

Just as remote African tribes preserve their history via oral tradition, we preserve ours, partly, via troparions, kontakions and the whole Divine Liturgy.

Before I became Orthodox, I learned a lot about early Church history just from listening to the different hymns being chanted.

Lazarus also became a bishop.
The Woman at the Well (St. Photini), her son, and her 5 sisters were all martyred.
St. Mary Magdalene is known as an Equal to the Apostles, as she did a lot of traveling and evangelizing as well.
Pilate's wife converted to Christianity.

Sts. Titus and Timothy, who have epistles written to them in the Bible, were both bishops.
I believe that the one leper of the ten that thanked Christ also became a saint. I don't remember.


As for Pilate's wife: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudia_Procula

I'd suggest going to a book on the lives of the saints for more reliable information.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I think that is very interesting.
I would be interested in reading the history sometime.
I know I have stated this before, there are many things that I appreciate about the Orthodox teachings. I think I would enjoy learning more of them.
I just can't accept the icons and "Saints" and Mary "veneration" stuff at all. (No offense intended.)
I would enjoy learning the other things though.

I'm not offended.

"I just can't accept the icons and "Saints" and Mary "veneration" stuff at all."

Do you mind if I stop here for a moment and ask why?

Saints are nothing more than someones grandfather or grandmother that has gone to be with Christ. We should not think of them as dead but alive with Christ. We are not to contact the dead... but the saints aren't dead.

As for Mary... "all generations will call me blessed", that's all were doing. We speak to her as if she were there in the room with us.

The Church has always stated that Christ received Mary's body to heaven, and that she has gone before us as both physically and spiritually.

Why should that be any stranger than his being born of her virgin womb?

Not everything we should want to know about Christianity is in the bible.

It's not the gnosis... it's the praxis that counts.

Forgive me...