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E.C.

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EC, didn't you used to belong to the RCC church?

That is a matter I don't always share lightly.

It has more to do with things going on in my life over the course of about two years as well as God's work more so that comparing and contrasting beliefs between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Why did you change religious groups? Do you feel that you knew Christ when you met with the RCC the way that you know Him now?

God called me East.

I knew Christ in the Roman Catholic Church. Still know Him just as well now as I did then. Yet in different ways.

For people to say that they are "Christian" means different things to different people. Many people "go to church" every once in a while or perhaps on a regular basis and think that going and sitting and listening to someone talk about the Lord makes them a Christian.
Other people think because they put up a tree and decorate it at Christmas that makes them a Christian. However, does that mean that they are born again?
Does it mean that Christ lives in them?
If they were baptized, than yes. Yet there is a difference between having the Holy Spirit live in you and listening to Him.

Born-Again Christians, aka Evangelicals, are not the only Christians on the planet. At baptism, one is born again no matter what Church/faith/denomination so long as baptized "In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

I know that for my husband, growing up going to the Lutheran church - church was where they went on Sundays. It was what his family did, but it did not lead Him to know the Lord. In fact, he has a vivid memory of a pastor telling a story about how there would be golf in heaven if you like playing golf and how even as a child around the age of 12 or so my husband thought that concept was ridiculous.
He does remember that at one point the church they went to got a new young preacher and he was preaching something different - more living probably, and his parents were not comfortable with the new guy and they quit that church and went to another one.
This is were I disagree: all things lead one to God, it is just a matter of listening to Him.

There is one Orthodox soon-to-be-glorified (canonized) Saint who was raised Methodist. He later became an Atheist, than a Buddhist and via his studies in colleges; became Orthodox and later a Heiromonk (priest-monk). All things in his life lead him to Orthodoxy. Just as my Roman Catholic background and period of religious hiatus in my life and history lead me to Orthodoxy. Your husband's Lutheran background and bad experiences with pastor-switching lead him to wherever his is now.

I know nothing about what you mean by "the piety of Mary".

Made up wordage for her undieing devotion, faith and love towards God.:)

But, it is certainly possible and probable and happens all of the time that people go to "churches" without knowing the Lord.
They know Him. He knows them. They just aren't on speaking terms.
 
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Uphill Battle

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Difference. I've been told that by Protestants.
and you think I haven't heard likewise sentiments from EO, RCC, etc...?

We're all a heretic in someone elses eyes.
[/QUOTE]
Nor was I when the pope removed himself from the Church. Yet, we still follow one legacy or another.
or, if you believe them, everyone left the Pope.

there is another line of thought, one that you likely won't accept. And that is the attempt to distance yourself from ANY of this Partisan politic style Christianity has gotten itself into. of course, you would say becuase I don't accept the EO as the one true church, I'm following the legacy of the protestors. I haven't separated from anything. I'm not even a PART of anything, frankly, beyond a family of believers that meet together to serve Christ and love each other. I'm not interested in playing that game.
I actually have to give them a little credit. I know not of any other faith/religion/Church/cult that could assembly line and distribute so many articles of clothing to so many with such good efficiency!
doesn't hurt, anyways.
Only about three to five. About 30,000 others just claim to be "the way".
ah, so because only three to five claim to be the one true church, that somehow makes it more credible? And I don't by the 30,000 BS argument. the number changes all the time, 30, 40, I've seen someone claim 60. I've seen very very FEW of them that claim to be "the way." (as in, we are right, y'all are wrong.)


Nope.
Try Eusebius. Or Timothy Ware. I could name a few others if you'd like, both pre and post Schism.

As well as a number of academic.
uh huh.

I think
that "will have" would be more accurate. Since we know quite a bit, our level of expected responsibility is higher than that of, let's say, a man on a deserted island since birth. We have more to be accountable for than the average Protestant since we treasure our history, Tradition and roots. Since we know more, we are expected to act it.
My priest once said that one of his professors at seminary would say at the end of the class "Now you know and you have no excuse".
which is where I find the disparagement. Us poor Protestants don't know anyting, by comparison. We are to be pitied.

But do you sit and watch as Protestants proselytize those already Christian? Or do you participate in the act?
participate? no. and I HAVE spoken up, but it does very little.

it only serves to have TWO groups spitting at me, instead of one. (beyond which, it's really REALLY hard to have much gumption to defend someone who pretty much dismisses your faith in the first place.)

I try not to judge. However, it always pains me how polarized this forum is between Rome, Protestants and Orthodox. The only time there is ever some quasi-unity is when one of the three is on the ground being stomped upon by the other two.
agreed on that.
It would be nice, if whenever one is being stomped by the two, if someone from one of the other camps would come out and at least say "hey, take a break".
I have made that attempt. It's done nothing of value so far.

The difference is that Canadians (at large) are much more liberal than Americans and will thus attack conservative-esque ideal or institutions. I used to watch the CBC for a while, but got sick of it for that just reason.
Americans, on the other hand, are the world's teenagers that think they know everything and thus attack anything that is either considered "ultra liberal" or "ultra conservative".
That being said, we could end up in the same boat one day.
oh, likely. give it enough time. the "fortress America" will happen sooner or later. More's the pity.


Examine yourself and how you react to posts made by others. I mean, truly examine and try to see how others would react. Would I dare go into OBOB and start posting about how Rome never cared for the Ecumenical Councils? No, but that is something which I hold to be true-ish. Would I dare go into the fundy areas and post about how in error they are for being like the pharisees of Christ's time? No, but again that is something begging for a beating or at least a very stern thread.
and I didn't go into any one elses area to do such a thing.

what I DO tend to react to, is holier-than-thou attitudes, injustice, and outright hypocracy. (It takes a hypocrite to know a hypocrite, I suppose.)


I don't post here as much as I used to because, frankly, I'm getting tired of seeing the hypocrisy in people saying that they love others, yet attack both individuals and institutions. Yes, I am more than guilty of this.
The main problem is that no one sees what they themselves are guilty of.
I'm guilty as charged.

Which post was it?
It really doesn't matter anymore.
 
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disasm

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There is one Orthodox soon-to-be-glorified (canonized) Saint who was raised Methodist. He later became an Atheist, than a Buddhist and via his studies in colleges; became Orthodox and later a Heiromonk (priest-monk).

Ooh, ooh, ooh, I know this one pick me, pick me!

Father Seraphim Rose!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.
 
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christianmomof3

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BTW ~ The OP is meant as a rhetorical thinking exercise.

Forgive me...
:swoon: Oh, I do not like rhetorical questions. They are not practical. Either there is an answer that is correct or there is not. I think it is a waste of time, effort and energy to worry about rhetorical questions.
I can think just fine without worrying about things that have no answers.:sorry:
Which is probably why this thread went off on so many tangents - there was no real answer to the question posed.
There were some interesting discussions though. :)
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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:swoon: Oh, I do not like rhetorical questions. They are not practical. Either there is an answer that is correct or there is not. I think it is a waste of time, effort and energy to worry about rhetorical questions.
I can think just fine without worrying about things that have no answers.:sorry:
Which is probably why this thread went off on so many tangents - there was no real answer to the question posed.
There were some interesting discussions though. :)

There is an answer. I'm just not going to be the one to give it.

Besides, you already know the answer.

St. James was killed for not supporting the Jewish high Priest against the Christian changes to the Jewish liturgy.

Forgive me...
 
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christianmomof3

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There is an answer. I'm just not going to be the one to give it.

Besides, you already know the answer.

St. James was killed for not supporting the Jewish high Priest against the Christian changes to the Jewish liturgy.

Forgive me...
Actually, I was not aware of that. I have not studied much of church history. I do have Foxe's Book of Martryrs, but have not read much of it and have not read it in many years. I also borrowed Miller's Church History from someone years ago, but I can't remember how much of it I got through. It suprises me actually because James seemed to be the apostle who kept the most Jewish traditions compared to the others.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Actually, I was not aware of that. I have not studied much of church history. I do have Foxe's Book of Martryrs, but have not read much of it and have not read it in many years. I also borrowed Miller's Church History from someone years ago, but I can't remember how much of it I got through. It suprises me actually because James seemed to be the apostle who kept the most Jewish traditions compared to the others.

He did, as they all did. However bringing the Eucharistic cup to the Temple and celebrating Christ's death and resurrection inside the Temple just wasn't welcome there.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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The Orthodox Church knows that all the Apostles with the exception of St. John were martyred. The Orthodox Church knows their stories, including the seventy.

For instance, did you know that Zacchaeus was one of the seventy and became a Bishop?

Why would we choose to be ignorant of this information?

BTW ~ Without the Church’s Liturgy… we would not have retained this history.

Forgive me...
 
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christianmomof3

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The Orthodox Church knows that all the Apostles with the exception of St. John were martyred. The Orthodox Church knows their stories, including the seventy.

For instance, did you know that Zacchaeus was one of the seventy and became a Bishop?

Why would we choose to be ignorant of this information?

BTW ~ Without the Church’s Liturgy… we would not have retained this history.

Forgive me...
I think that is very interesting.
I would be interested in reading the history sometime.
I know I have stated this before, there are many things that I appreciate about the Orthodox teachings. I think I would enjoy learning more of them.
I just can't accept the icons and "Saints" and Mary "veneration" stuff at all. :sorry: (No offense intended.)
I would enjoy learning the other things though.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Icons (images) in the OT:

Exd 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Exd 26:31 ¶And thou shalt make a vail [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:

Exd 27:16 ¶And for the gate of the court [shall be] an hanging of twenty cubits, [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework: [and] their pillars [shall be] four, and their sockets four.

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.


They aren't idols. We don't worship them. We just don't see that Saints as dead. They are with Christ, as the angels are, and having a picture of them during worship... we are joined with them. We worship together. We no more worship them than the Jews worshiped the Cherubs on the tapestries.

We inherited this from Judaism too. But you probably know more about that than I do.

Forgive me…:liturgy:
 
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disasm

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The Orthodox Church knows that all the Apostles with the exception of St. John were martyred. The Orthodox Church knows their stories, including the seventy.

For instance, did you know that Zacchaeus was one of the seventy and became a Bishop?

Why would we choose to be ignorant of this information?

BTW ~ Without the Church’s Liturgy… we would not have retained this history.

Forgive me...
And the Samaritan woman at the well is St. Photini.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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And the Samaritan woman at the well is St. Photini.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

They cast her children (and her I think) to the bottom of that same well.

Lord have mercy!

Forgive me...
 
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katherine2001

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Lazarus also became a bishop.
The Woman at the Well (St. Photini), her son, and her 5 sisters were all martyred.
St. Mary Magdalene is known as an Equal to the Apostles, as she did a lot of traveling and evangelizing as well.
Pilate's wife converted to Christianity.
 
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disasm

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Lazarus also became a bishop.
The Woman at the Well (St. Photini), her son, and her 5 sisters were all martyred.
St. Mary Magdalene is known as an Equal to the Apostles, as she did a lot of traveling and evangelizing as well.
Pilate's wife converted to Christianity.
Really? Who was Pilate's wife? Do you know what day we celebrate her Saint Day?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Really? Who was Pilate's wife? Do you know what day we celebrate her Saint Day?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

Ooh... I had forgotten about her. What was her name?

Forgive me...
 
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christianmomof3

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Icons (images) in the OT:

Exd 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Exd 26:31 ¶And thou shalt make a vail [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:

Exd 27:16 ¶And for the gate of the court [shall be] an hanging of twenty cubits, [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework: [and] their pillars [shall be] four, and their sockets four.

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.


They aren't idols. We don't worship them. We just don't see that Saints as dead. They are with Christ, as the angels are, and having a picture of them during worship... we are joined with them. We worship together. We no more worship them than the Jews worshiped the Cherubs on the tapestries.

We inherited this from Judaism too. But you probably know more about that than I do.

Forgive me…:liturgy:
:) :hug: Well, it is probably my Jewish background that is part of why I can't accept those things.
I was raised in Reform Judaism, the most liberal group in Judaism, and was taught to question everything.
I questioned my way out of Judaism.
Judaism does not have a firm and accepted belief about the afterlife - there are some ideas among some groups of Jews, but not one definite concept other than we don't know what happens after we die and I personally am in no hurry to find out for sure what will happen.
So, the concept of dead people being alive in heaven, and being able to hear the prayers of the living is just beyond what I can accept.

When I left the Jewish religion (at about 19 years old) I was not even sure if there was a God (but if there was one I was sure there could only be one, so the Christians were obviously wrong since they had 3).

Now that I am a born again Christian, I know that God exists and that He is Jesus and that He is the Holy Spirit and that He is triune because He lives in me and I experience Him.

I have never experienced "Saints".

I guess if God wants me to experience that, He will take care of that matter.

I am a skeptic and would not even believe in God if He hadn't chosen me and come into me in such a real and living way.

I don't believe in God because of what anyone has told me or because of what the Bible says.

I believe in Him because He is real and He lives in me.

The Bible and what I have learned from other Christians just explains the Christ who I know and helps me to know Him better.

I don't know if that makes any sense or not.

If I were God I would never have chosen me to be born again.

But He did and I guess He knows what He is doing.

I do enjoy learning about Him.

And I have learned a lot about how different groups of people see Him and worship Him on this forum.
I think that is interesting.

 
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katherine2001

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Really? Who was Pilate's wife? Do you know what day we celebrate her Saint Day?

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.
Let me do some research on that. I read it at one time but can't remember it off the top of my head.
 
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