why??

[Yitzchak]

It is not big deal for me. The state has no business teaching religion in any form. Say that it becomes a Christian State, what doctrine? Baptist, Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, just which one of these Christian Traditions is going to be used? What about a Baptist that would take exception to Orthodox veneration of ikons? Or a Lutheran who would take exception to believer's only baptism of the Baptists?
If one wants one's children to learn the faith, well that is what the home, church and Sunday Schools are for.
Jeff the Finn

I agree with this viewpoint. I am in favor of seperation of church and state, not because the constitution says it , but because I believe the bible teaches it.
I was however trying to answer the question in the opening post concerning why a lot of christians are so upset about these issues. It is increasingly hard to take certain things for granted which used to be the case. And things never change in the ideal way. they are always accompanied by emotional and sometimes angry people who have their own agendas and are trying to capitalize on things.

 

[whitestar]

Another one:

Amendments to the Constitution
CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PROPOSED BY CONGRESS, AND RATIFIED BY THE LEGISLATURES OF THE SEVERAL STATES, PURSUANT TO THE FIFTH ARTICLE OF THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION (See Note 12)
Article [I.] (See Note 13)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Freedom of speech...cannot say God/Jesus, ect in a public school...and certain other government buildings.....(I STILL cannot find where it say ANYTHING about seperation of the church and state)

The press...well someone recently got a brain storm and decided when a new worthy items happens INSTEAD of sending out a million reporters FROM competeting News stations...they are only going to send out reporters that work for the SAME news station...who cares if they are all from FOX and give extremely slated views on things...

This way the public only sees a news event from ONE angle...instead of getting other viewpoints or even straight facts....not what I was taught in school on reporting the news. It WAS straight facts back then...now everything is slated to what they want you to think...not too mention how much is just flat out ommitted...

The news is being controlled. has been for a long time but now with this lastest brain storm...pretty soon it will be ONE news station...that TELLS you what to think about this story...

Just pushing us more and more into the one world government thing. Chipping chipping away and ALL our rights...even the right to bear arms has been picked on..

Another one: ....or the right of the people peaceably to assemble.....

When people were protesting the war on Iraq they finally started arresting them and said they were going to start charging people with a terroizt act...why? (which in this case they had a good point..but I think terroism was a bit too much) Because these protestors were laying in the street blocking traffic, police and EMS were not able to get through...police and other city EMS workers were called away from their posts (we were on high alert again) to deal with these people....leaving certain places vurenable to terroist attacks.

While I also agreed these people were a real problem, they could have just called in a SWAT team or something...arrested them all and been done with it....bring in a semi truck or something and hauled them off...I mean someone could have been dying, called 911 and they couldn't get to them because of these people.....

Now, of course this IS what the news reported..I wasn't actually there...so I couldn't say for 100% sure what I was hearing on the news was actually the truth or if the government just didn't like being protested against....mmmm.

Anyone know...like were you actually there to see if they were laying in the street or not and blocking traffic?

I could go on and on on about how our rights are being slowly chipped away, little by little..but its late...more tomorrow.

God bless
whitestar

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

even if all of our rights are chipped away, nothing would change between us and God, if anything, it will make us stronger christians.

"For when I am weak, I am strong" -Paul

 

[Palatka44]

*mods, go ahead and move this if necessary...wasn't sure where to put it. Thought here since it is in response the current events in Alabama*

Why do people say things like this ...."This is part of a larger plan to remove every vestige of faith or reverence for God from the public square. That's where this is headed." (james dobson)

I don't need agreement from the majority regarding my god in my everyday life. Why do you (those who agree)?? Are you afraid that if people are not reminded of Christianity every time they turn around, it will lose followers? I don't understand what the "big deal " is...please explain.

It's just as much a States Rights issue as it has to do with religion.
The Supreme Court of the State of Alabama said that the monument was ok. Someone sued and a Federal Judge said it had to go. The Supreme Justice of the State of Alabama (Roy Moore) stept in and said that the people and courts of Alabama says it should stay.
I don't know but it has been said that the Federal Judge that ruled against the people of Alabama has a statue of a Greek goddess in his court. Placed by Federal mandate. As per Roy Moore.
Whats good for the goose should be good for the gander.
If you ask me I'd let the gospel stand toe to toe with any religion the world has to offer. On an even playing field where each could have free peaceful debate the gospel will win out every time. This is what the Devil knows and what the seperationist are afraid of. Even if all the others were to take up violence against the gospel the gospel wins "Hands Down".

 

[Palatka44]

Our fathers faced a situation in 1776, and the years before, the mandate of the Church of England. Approved by the King the Church of England was to take a religious tax from every religion or denomination of Christianity, Quaker, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist or Shaker alike.
To have a truly free society they recognized the fact that religion had to be free. So they included in the first amendment the statement that Congress shall not make any law respecting an establishment of religion for if they did all others would have to pay taxes to it. They also included that Congress can not prevent the free exercise thereof.
Where is the wall of seperation?

 

[Philosoft]

It's just as much a States Rights issue as it has to do with religion.

It's not. The US Constitution overrides state constitutions where there is a conflict. Period.

The Supreme Court of the State of Alabama said that the monument was ok. Someone sued and a Federal Judge said it had to go. The Supreme Justice of the State of Alabama (Roy Moore) stept in and said that the people and courts of Alabama says it should stay.

And what Moore is essentially saying is, "the Alabama State Constitution should prevail over the US Constitution," which is a non-starter.

I don't know but it has been said that the Federal Judge that ruled against the people of Alabama has a statue of a Greek goddess in his court. Placed by Federal mandate. As per Roy Moore.

Let Moore sue the feds. I don't think the Supreme Court, should they bother to even take the case, would hesitate to classify the Greek or Roman pantheons as pure mythology.

Whats good for the goose should be good for the gander.

Nice try.

If you ask me I'd let the gospel stand toe to toe with any religion the world has to offer. On an even playing field where each could have free peaceful debate the gospel will win out every time. This is what the Devil knows and what the seperationist are afraid of. Even if all the others were to take up violence against the gospel the gospel wins "Hands Down".

Wins what? An award for 'Most varied interpretations of a text supposedly inspired by a perfectly good being"?

 

[Philosoft]

To have a truly free society they recognized the fact that religion had to be free.

And that the state had to be free, as well.

So they included in the first amendment the statement that Congress shall not make any law respecting an establishment of religion for if they did all others would have to pay taxes to it. They also included that Congress can not prevent the free exercise thereof.

Close enough.

Where is the wall of seperation?

Right where the courts put it.

 

[Palatka44]

And that the state had to be free, as well.

Close enough.

Right where the courts put it.

The modern courts of course.
What did I say to anger you so?

 

[Palatka44]

It's not. The US Constitution overrides state constitutions where there is a conflict. Period.

And what Moore is essentially saying is, "the Alabama State Constitution should prevail over the US Constitution," which is a non-starter.

Let Moore sue the feds. I don't think the Supreme Court, should they bother to even take the case, would hesitate to classify the Greek or Roman pantheons as pure mythology.

Nice try.

Wins what? An award for 'Most varied interpretations of a text supposedly inspired by a perfectly good being"?

As far as I understand it the counter suit is from an Alabama grassroot movement to keep them in place. Moore, because of his office can not bring law suits.
Why are you so defencive? I think we should give all religions equal footing on the public scene. The Gospel of our loving Savior Jesus Christ will still be standing long after the others are forgotten myths. Look what's become of the Greco/Roman religion. I'm not affraid of this test for it is a test that has been going on sense Jesus ressurected. Many of his saints have died trying to tell others of the risen Savior and in their deaths many have believed. No one that is a Christian wants to force this onto anyone that does not want it. It's just that we as Christians want equal footing but be not worrysome we are going to prevail anyway. If the Alabama display is removed we will have won just the same. Maybe not on the terms of an earthly prize but God will have the glory. In that is my prize now and forever let HIS name be praised.

 

[Rae]

Yitzchak:
A school teacher threatened with being fired if he didn't stop bringing his bible to school to read during his lunch break. My own daughter told she cannot bow her head to pray over her meal in the lunch room at public school. A girl from our church told she would have to remove references to Jesus as the inspiration for her successes when she gave her speech at high school commencement.

Rae:
The above is the best argument I've seen for the need of legal education for teachers and public school administrators. PRIVATE expression of religious views is perfectly fine in the public schools.

Evolution is a theory, can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that man evolved and was not created. It can't be done, so lets also teach the creation theory as well.
--There's more than one, hon. How many should we teach? The Native Americans have many creation stories.... If you want to be fair, you need to teach ALL of them. That wouldn't leave any time for science education. How about not teaching any of them, teaching the science instead, and referring kids interested in creation stories to churches, synagogues, temples, and other places where believers in those stories can teach them about them?

 

[Blackhawk]

What I find ironic is that the federal court was the one to give the order to remove the 10 commandments when Moses is displayed in the Supreme court building holding the 10 commandments.

Also what about the argument that the 10 commandments are a historical document of law. No matter what one thinks of Christianity that is true.

Personally I am against removing them but I do not see it as such a big issue in itself. A bigger issue is the continued secularization of our society and culture. I think that is what the protesters and myself are really concerned about. I choose though to live in my life loving God and others the best I can with God's help and trying to influence others through love. I do not know if this demostration is helping the cause of the gospel or not. To me that is what is important.

I do not agree that the goverment has to be religously neutral or that it could ever happen. The founding fathers were definitely not religously neutral in their writings or in their actions whether public or private.

Okay that is my $.02.

 

[whitestar]

It's not. The US Constitution overrides state constitutions where there is a conflict. Period.

And what Moore is essentially saying is, "the Alabama State Constitution should prevail over the US Constitution," which is a non-starter.

Let Moore sue the feds. I don't think the Supreme Court, should they bother to even take the case, would hesitate to classify the Greek or Roman pantheons as pure mythology.

Nice try.

Wins what? An award for 'Most varied interpretations of a text supposedly inspired by a perfectly good being"?

No...the government is to NOT interfer with what a state does on the matter of reglion....even that idot they had on the phone on CNN this morning while showing them moving the ten commandments, said the government is NOT suppose to make any desions in a state regarding reglion...but they just did, didn't they?


From Faith and Family (http://www.family.org/cforum/fnif/commentary/a0027492.cfm)
"When he ordered the removal of the Ten Commandments monument from the Supreme Court Building in Alabama, federal Judge Myron Thompson stated that the issue at stake involved the question of whether or not the state has the right to acknowledge God.

Actually, this formulation is a distraction from the real issue, which is whether or not Myron Thompson or any other federal judge has the right to interfere with state actions that may or may not constitute an establishment of religion.

Someone who simply read the text of the Constitution of the United States would be thoroughly surprised to learn that a federal judge claims the right to act in this manner. The First Amendment to the Constitution plainly states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Since there can be no federal law on the subject, there appears to be no lawful basis for any element of the federal government, including the courts, to act in this area. Moreover, the 10th Amendment to the Constitution plainly states that "the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." (for the full article click on the link)

Again I will list the first admendment :Article [I.]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;....

(I am learning more about our rights then I even did when I was in school...lol)

God bless
whitestar

 

[Reader Nilus]

The Federal Judge who made the ruling should jail Chief Justice Roy Moore for contempt of court.
Jeff the Finn

 

[whitestar]

You know people seem to forget, besides the fact that the US was formed on the Christian reglion, that we welcomed (and still do mostly) people from all over the world, all races, all nationalities, and ALL reglions. People came from all over to HAVE the freedom to woship whatever God they wanted without being jailed, beaten, or killed for it.

America didn't care what their reglion was, let alone anything esle. New York new fast because these people traveled in boats and ended up there...many in NY's early years were Irish and were Catholics (which I personally see as very different from the basis Christian doctine). The government, the people didn't care what reglion they were...didn't matter if they were Jewish, or Islam and so on.

It made our culture rich and strong mixes together all these different people bringing in their own cultures and reglions, music and food, and customs.

No one was harassed for being different because no one was different....being different is what MADE us American.

The consitution says 'reglion'...not Christian reglion, not Muslim reglion, not atheis reglion ....if you look up the word reglion is means a belief so even athesis falls under this defination.

NO reglion in America should be singled out or forced yet...the athesis has as much rights as any Christian or any other reglion to express their belief in no god and we do in expressing our belief in a god.

If an athesis judge wanted to put up a 5,000 block of stone that said, there is no god...he should have the right to do that....accournding to the constiution...

And yes, even a muslim judge could put a block of stone up that has praises to Allah on it and have the right to do that.

This is what I am saying...ALL reglions/beliefs are going to be affected by this, NOT just the Christian beliefs.

Though on another interesting note...while Christianty has been pushed out of the public school...where children USED to beable to read the bible as part of their studies...and now they can't even pray out loud...

....in our local newspaper was a short clip about a student in a public school who is a satanists, demanded he be allowed to wear a black cape to school and called high presit....the school board was going to have a meeting on to how to acknowlege his 'faith'...and not suppress it....

Now isn't it interesting OTHER'S beliefs are being acknowleged and allowed for....but not the Christian faith???

A student who is an athesis, for instance, does not have to particapte in the pledge of alliance because of the words one nation under God...

All these students of OTHER beliefs/reglions are allowed for...but NOT the Christian faith...

kind of odd, uh?

God bless
whitestar

 

[notto]

whitestar,

Your last post contains many distortions of the facts.

PERSONAL religious expression is not limited in any way in schools. It is mandated, teacher led prayer and religious practices that are unconstitutional. Christians are as welcome as anybody else to wear religious jewelry, pray in private or in groups as long as it doesn't disturb the classroom, or even use the bible as a reference from studies as long as everybody isn't required to do so. There are no INDIVIDUAL rights that are violated in any way in a school that follows these guidelines. The rights guaranteed by the constitution are INDIVIDUAL rights and these are protected whent the state allows an agent of the state (teacher, pricipal, judge) to follow an action that violtes these rights.

The state cannot put into practice anything the infringes on the PERSONAL rights that are protected by the federal constitution. The court rulings in this case have shown that what judge moore is doing does exactly that. He is using his position as a judge to use public facilities to push his personal faith. He is welcome to express his PERSONAL religious faith any way he wants as long as he is not aided by the government or his role as a government official.

There is no constitutional "right" to use the machinery of the state to push your personal religious views into the public eye. This is exactly what judge Moore did and it violates the constitution because he is using his position to endorse and establish a religioius preference in a courthouse that belongs to all.

A judge does not have the right to put ANY personal religious expression into the public eye. He is welcome to do it in his office where he can expect a right to privacy, he is welcome to carry around a card with the 10 commandments in his pocket, he is welcome to discuss them with his peers at lunch time or where it is clear that this is his personal beliefs.

He is abusing power and violating the constitution. The courts have decided, the state attorney general agrees.

 

[Lillithspeak]

Another one:

Amendments to the Constitution
CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PROPOSED BY CONGRESS, AND RATIFIED BY THE LEGISLATURES OF THE SEVERAL STATES, PURSUANT TO THE FIFTH ARTICLE OF THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION (See Note 12)
Article [I.] (See Note 13)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Freedom of speech...cannot say God/Jesus, ect in a public school...and certain other government buildings.....(I STILL cannot find where it say ANYTHING about seperation of the church and state)

The press...well someone recently got a brain storm and decided when a new worthy items happens INSTEAD of sending out a million reporters FROM competeting News stations...they are only going to send out reporters that work for the SAME news station...who cares if they are all from FOX and give extremely slated views on things...

This way the public only sees a news event from ONE angle...instead of getting other viewpoints or even straight facts....not what I was taught in school on reporting the news. It WAS straight facts back then...now everything is slated to what they want you to think...not too mention how much is just flat out ommitted...

The news is being controlled. has been for a long time but now with this lastest brain storm...pretty soon it will be ONE news station...that TELLS you what to think about this story...

Just pushing us more and more into the one world government thing. Chipping chipping away and ALL our rights...even the right to bear arms has been picked on..

Another one: ....or the right of the people peaceably to assemble.....

When people were protesting the war on Iraq they finally started arresting them and said they were going to start charging people with a terroizt act...why? (which in this case they had a good point..but I think terroism was a bit too much) Because these protestors were laying in the street blocking traffic, police and EMS were not able to get through...police and other city EMS workers were called away from their posts (we were on high alert again) to deal with these people....leaving certain places vurenable to terroist attacks.

While I also agreed these people were a real problem, they could have just called in a SWAT team or something...arrested them all and been done with it....bring in a semi truck or something and hauled them off...I mean someone could have been dying, called 911 and they couldn't get to them because of these people.....

Now, of course this IS what the news reported..I wasn't actually there...so I couldn't say for 100% sure what I was hearing on the news was actually the truth or if the government just didn't like being protested against....mmmm.

Anyone know...like were you actually there to see if they were laying in the street or not and blocking traffic?

I could go on and on on about how our rights are being slowly chipped away, little by little..but its late...more tomorrow.

God bless
whitestar

For which we can thank John Aschroft-a good Christian man who can't bear the sight of a breast made of marble. Makes you wonder what he'd do to the beautiful statue of David doesn't it?

Lillith

 

[Lillithspeak]

You know people seem to forget, besides the fact that the US was formed on the Christian reglion, that we welcomed (and still do mostly) people from all over the world, all races, all nationalities, and ALL reglions. People came from all over to HAVE the freedom to woship whatever God they wanted without being jailed, beaten, or killed for it.

America didn't care what their reglion was, let alone anything esle. New York new fast because these people traveled in boats and ended up there...many in NY's early years were Irish and were Catholics (which I personally see as very different from the basis Christian doctine). The government, the people didn't care what reglion they were...didn't matter if they were Jewish, or Islam and so on.

It made our culture rich and strong mixes together all these different people bringing in their own cultures and reglions, music and food, and customs.

No one was harassed for being different because no one was different....being different is what MADE us American.

The consitution says 'reglion'...not Christian reglion, not Muslim reglion, not atheis reglion ....if you look up the word reglion is means a belief so even athesis falls under this defination.

NO reglion in America should be singled out or forced yet...the athesis has as much rights as any Christian or any other reglion to express their belief in no god and we do in expressing our belief in a god.

If an athesis judge wanted to put up a 5,000 block of stone that said, there is no god...he should have the right to do that....accournding to the constiution...

And yes, even a muslim judge could put a block of stone up that has praises to Allah on it and have the right to do that.

This is what I am saying...ALL reglions/beliefs are going to be affected by this, NOT just the Christian beliefs.

Though on another interesting note...while Christianty has been pushed out of the public school...where children USED to beable to read the bible as part of their studies...and now they can't even pray out loud...

....in our local newspaper was a short clip about a student in a public school who is a satanists, demanded he be allowed to wear a black cape to school and called high presit....the school board was going to have a meeting on to how to acknowlege his 'faith'...and not suppress it....

Now isn't it interesting OTHER'S beliefs are being acknowleged and allowed for....but not the Christian faith???

A student who is an athesis, for instance, does not have to particapte in the pledge of alliance because of the words one nation under God...

All these students of OTHER beliefs/reglions are allowed for...but NOT the Christian faith...

kind of odd, uh?

As usual, it's being presented very slanted. Kids can pray out loud if they want, just not in organized groups. Who would stop you saying grace over your lunch? No one.

Of course, if we allow organized praying, then five times a day the Muslim kids can whip out their prayer rugs and face mecca during class. Then there's the other ones that handle snakes during their prayers-rattlers and copperheads-that could get really interesting. The satanist's could light their black candles and say a little prayer. Are you willing to allow all of that? And if so, how much schooling is getting done, and if not, you're only advocating for your religious views.

Sounds like it all belongs in Sunday school or church or mosque, or temple or whatever, not in the public schools.

Lillith

God bless
whitestar

 

[ifriit]

You know people seem to forget, besides the fact that the US was formed on the Christian reglion,...

A fact denied by the very government of the United States, I might note.

...that we welcomed (and still do mostly) people from all over the world, all races, all nationalities, and ALL reglions. People came from all over to HAVE the freedom to woship whatever God they wanted without being jailed, beaten, or killed for it.

America didn't care what their reglion was, let alone anything esle. New York new fast because these people traveled in boats and ended up there...many in NY's early years were Irish and were Catholics (which I personally see as very different from the basis Christian doctine). The government, the people didn't care what reglion they were...didn't matter if they were Jewish, or Islam and so on.

It made our culture rich and strong mixes together all these different people bringing in their own cultures and reglions, music and food, and customs.

No one was harassed for being different because no one was different....being different is what MADE us American.

Your ignorance of history is astonishing. Heck, take a look at the history of the Irish in America. The Irish were spat upon and forced into some of the worst jobs in the history of America. Take a look at the history of the Chinese, who were harassed incessantly with laws prohibiting them from being out after dark, from being seen with white women... the outlawing of opium had more to do with fears that the Chinese were getting all the white man's money than it did the deleterious effects!

The consitution says 'reglion'...not Christian reglion, not Muslim reglion, not atheis reglion ....if you look up the word reglion is means a belief so even athesis falls under this defination.

If a religion is a belief, then it is a useless definition. My belief that my motorcycle is outside is rendered a religion by your claims. Such is not the accepted definition of religion, certainly not at a legal level.

NO reglion in America should be singled out or forced yet...the athesis has as much rights as any Christian or any other reglion to express their belief in no god and we do in expressing our belief in a god.

If an athesis judge wanted to put up a 5,000 block of stone that said, there is no god...he should have the right to do that....accournding to the constiution...

No, no, no. Absolutely not. The judge is an official representative of the government of the US. By making that statement in that manner, it appears that it is the government backing his opinions. I would stand as steadfastly against this abuse as I do against Judge Moore's actions.

Though on another interesting note...while Christianty has been pushed out of the public school...where children USED to beable to read the bible as part of their studies...and now they can't even pray out loud...

Factually incorrect. Children may pray out loud in public schools. They may not be led or forced to pray by any government representative, however.

....in our local newspaper was a short clip about a student in a public school who is a satanists, demanded he be allowed to wear a black cape to school and called high presit....the school board was going to have a meeting on to how to acknowlege his 'faith'...and not suppress it....

Now isn't it interesting OTHER'S beliefs are being acknowleged and allowed for....but not the Christian faith???

Again, factually incorrect.

A student who is an athesis, for instance, does not have to particapte in the pledge of alliance because of the words one nation under God...

Very few states have laws forcing anyone to say the pledge. In those that do, yes, even the atheist kid has to say it.

All these students of OTHER beliefs/reglions are allowed for...but NOT the Christian faith...

You know, you should really stop crying wolf all the time. Eventually, something might really happen, and noone will act on your complaints because by then we'll all think you're just a bunch of whiners.

 

[Force]

The US Constitution overrides state constitutions where there is a conflict. Period.

Technically this is not meant to be the case, the federal government has been given way too much power, in the last 100 yrs if you look at it the Founding Fathers wanted America to be ran by THE STATES, with very little involvement from the Federal government. Slowly states rights have been taken away, and what are we left with a BIG federal government.....This is the real problem.

 

[Brother Christman]

One personal example. My daughter who was 7 years old at the time was enrolled in public school. Our family never celebrated halloween for religious reasons. Anyway, the school refused to honor christmas and easter any longer because of "seperation of church and state" and discouraged my child from talking about those holidays in school at that time of year.
However they had a huge celebration of Halloween. which is understandable because it involves dressing up and candy and things that children generally respond to. But in my thinking halloween has religious themes which I don't agree with. So for two whole weeks my daughter was bombarded with halloween themes in her class at school. Witchcraft stories and spells, ghosts, monsters, spirits, etc. She was also introduced to stories about "freddy" and horror film talk from other students since after all it was Halloween.

This brings up an excellent point: In the day and age of “Wicca” (Satanism Lite™) and self-professed witches, Halloween has just as much religious significance as Christmas, Easter, Chanukah, or Ramadan... Yet no one 's complaining (other than Christians). Hmm...

Anyway, the teacher planned a little skit/play where the children would act out a halloween book she had been reading to the class for the past two weeks. When I saw that my daughter was scheduled to be a witch and cast spells during the play I made an appointment and requested of the teacher that my daughter be exempted under reliigous reasons. The day of the play I showed up with the other parents and saw my daughter dressed up as a witch and playing the original part the teacher had promised she would not have her in.

I'd have checked her out during the play, just to be safe... but I admire your giving the teacher the benefit of the doubt. That shows good will, at least.

I was placed in a very awkward position as a parent. after the play I complained to the teacher who said simply that she was busy and had forgotten. I asked how she could forget when i took off work and made a special appointment and we had a long conversation about it. At which point she admitted that she had intentionally did it because I was a religious bigot and didn't have a right to ask what I did.

This is way out of line and case-and-point for fighting the quiet march of Big Brother and the secular/homosexual/pagan/communist crowd upon the rights of parents. Someone posted a while back in another thread about a proposal in the UK to teach near toddlers about sex (under the guise of promoting abstinence) that the answer to parents who wished to allow their children to keep their innocence was for parents to be present and participate as their kids were “taught” from this program. This, to me, is like telling a Jew “we're going to study Hitler as a nifty guy – but don't worry: you're welcome to participate”.

Insult was added to injury as this person suggested that the absence of some parents from these sessions indicated the need for them (presuming it indicated apathy) while carefully omitting the fact that many parents who would not approve and love their kids might be working two jobs to keep their children fed (and through taxes, pay the salaries of Comrade Sexinstructor and his/her partner). Especially before UNESCO is allowed to pollute our public schools with anti American, anti Jude-Christian propaganda, something has to be done, folks.

This... stuff has been allowed to go way, way too far.

Add to this, my daughter coming home talking about many political and religious and moral issues from a perspective which I find disagreeable and I can understand the feeling that we are in a hostile environment to raise a christian child. And this is only the public school system. Multiply that to include all other public arenas and think about the emotions involved and you will be a step closer to understanding the frustration.

This is why more and more people are sending their kids to private school or, if funds are short, home schooling. The God-haters are the first to scream and cry (i.e. on CNN) about our schools' substandard curriculum (conveniently in time for UNESCO to step in and play the noble patron), but they're causing the flight from our schools and spurring it ever faster through all of this.