why??

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I was breaking it down in layman's terms........What I was saying was people need to stand up for themselves IE:

England France, Spain (main three settling parties) came over here...then the branch off of that became colonial. (after the fact) Thus the French & Indian Wars which the colonials and English destroying the French....then seeing we didn't need Englands protection the colonists felt less need for the English spawning the American Revolution. Which gave us the 13 colonies which was a weak union established with the Articles of Confederation. Then later on glorious Independence day.



And we were not completely changed and formed until after the Civil War and Reconstruction. (we fought ourselves...not a foreign war is what I was saying.)

Hope that made it better for you.

The point being....Stand up dont ride the fence! (thats directly pointing to ANY christian who will not stand up for their beliefs.)

Force, our country is still undergoing change, else this whole issue would not be an issue.


"The point being....Stand up dont ride the fence! (thats directly pointing to ANY christian who will not stand up for their beliefs.)"

I believe we are doing Gods will by moving the statue.

It's legalistic to NOT move just another 50 yeards outside. Infact, it's just plain stupidity and arrogance, which is infact not of Gods will.

It's God will to serve your country the best way you should. Spliting and dividing it is not! Roy Moore is doing just that.

 

[Force]

And any Christian who stands up for their beliefs MUST agree with you? If not, who are you talking to, since nobody here is fence-sitting?

No ArchAngel came on saying that Christians should sit back and relax...be tolerant...yadda yadda.....dont interfere.....well thats not what Christians are supposed to do. Sit around with their thumbs in their butts............That is riding the fence. And it sickens me.

I was just responding to what he was saying we should do as Christians.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

Inncorrect. Thank you for putting words in my mouth.

As christians we need to save souls and to go out and make disciples.

What Roy Moore is doing is completly screwing that up for us.

We need to be loving to others, create freindships. NOT FORCE THINGS DOWN PEOPLES THROATS or try to MANIPULATE THEM into beleiving.

Nonchristians around the country are thinking negativly now about us.

God have mercy!!! Getting rid of the 10 commandments statue will not hurt us, hurt God, nor will it hurt out country. If anything, it will show the non christians that they actually do have freedom from religon, just as God has given us free will to beleive what we want to beleive, whether it be Him or not.

We are impossing our beleifes on people in whom they don't want to be impossed upon, despite the fact that MOORE SHOULD HAVE NEVER PUT IT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[BarbB]

Inncorrect. Thank you for putting words in my mouth.

As christians we need to save souls and to go out and make disciples.

What Roy Moore is doing is completly screwing that up for us.

We need to be loving to others, create freindships. NOT FORCE THINGS DOWN PEOPLES THROATS or try to MANIPULATE THEM into beleiving.

Nonchristians around the country are thinking negativly now about us.

God have mercy!!! Getting rid of the 10 commandments statue will not hurt us, hurt God, nor will it hurt out country. If anything, it will show the non christians that they actually do have freedom from religon, just as God has given us free will to beleive what we want to beleive, whether it be Him or not.

We are impossing our beleifes on people in whom they don't want to be impossed upon, despite the fact that MOORE SHOULD HAVE NEVER PUT IT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I do finally see the point that you are trying to make but as Christians we MUST NOT curry favor of non-Christians and we CANNOT be frightened from righteous acts by whether others perceive us as nut jobs. Also, we witness to non-Christians; we do not convince! God has to do the convincing! That's why some of these forums are so non-productive.

We are specifically warned about fence-sitting in Revelation 3:14 (NIV)

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. [15] I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! [16] So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

I do not want to be spat out of Jesus' mouth!!!

 

[bigfws]

And you shall be hated in all nations because of me
It is the Christ in Christianity that offends. If being hated is what it takes people bring it on. I got big old broad shoulders, and I HAVE CHRIST IN MY HEART

 

[kdet]

And you shall be hated in all nations because of me
It is the Christ in Christianity that offends. If being hated is what it takes people bring it on. I got big old broad shoulders, and I HAVE CHRIST IN MY HEART

Amen and Amen

 

[kdet]

I do finally see the point that you are trying to make but as Christians we MUST NOT curry favor of non-Christians and we CANNOT be frightened from righteous acts by whether others perceive us as nut jobs. Also, we witness to non-Christians; we do not convince! God has to do the convincing! That's why some of these forums are so non-productive.

We are specifically warned about fence-sitting in Revelation 3:14 (NIV)

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. [15] I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! [16] So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

I do not want to be spat out of Jesus' mouth!!!

I love your posts, Newlamb.

 

[strathyboy]

I do finally see the point that you are trying to make but as Christians we MUST NOT curry favor of non-Christians and we CANNOT be frightened from righteous acts by whether others perceive us as nut jobs.

Perhaps you can be the one to step up and prove that Moore's actions are in fact "righteous". Christian opinion is divided. Whenever I ask for proof of righteousness in regards to Moore, I get a lecture on how Christians are being oppressed and we must not stand for it any more.

 

[lunachick]

....if you look in history the whole reason people left Britan was because they were being forced in to a reglion they didn't agree with...they had NO freedoms on reglions AND many other things...that is why they came to America to start with...to have the freedom to woship as they choose too...

I'm surprised no one has picked up on the irony of this.

Please, tell me...what was the religion that the founders of America were escaping?

Clue: Christianity.

Why?

Clue: Because they contended that The Church of England (a Christian Church) had become a product of political struggles and man-made doctrines.
(Errmmm, anyone recognise anything going on in America today that might be parallel to this?)

The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution
Expelled from Massachusetts in the dead of winter in 1636, former Puritan leader Roger Williams (1603-1683) issued an impassioned plea for freedom of conscience. He wrote, "God requireth not an uniformity of Religion to be inacted and inforced in any civill state; which inforced uniformity (sooner or later) is the greatest occasion of civill Warre, ravishing of conscience, persecution of Christ Jesus in his servants, and of hypocrisy and destruction of millions of souls." Williams later founded Rhode Island on the principle of religious freedom. He welcomed people of every shade of religious belief, even some regarded as dangerously misguided, for nothing could change his view that "forced worship stinks in God's nostrils."

Penn's Frame of Government
In his famous charter of religious liberty, William Penn pledged that all citizens who believed in "One Almighty and eternal God . . . shall in no wayes be molested or prejudiced for their Religious Perswasion or Practice in matters of Faith and Worship, nor shall they be compelled at any time to frequent or maintain any Religious Worship, Place or Ministry whatever." Pennsylvania became a reference point a century later for Americans opposing plans for government-supported religion. "Witness the state of Pennsylvania," a group of Virginians urged its House of Delegates in 1785, "wherein no such [religious] Establishment hath taken place; their Government stands firm and which of the neighbouring States has Members of brighter Morals and more upright Characters."

Maryland Act Concerning Religion
In 1649, Catholics in the Maryland Assembly passed an act stipulating that no Trinitarian Christian "shall from henceforth be any waies troubled, molested, or discountenanced, for, or in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof within this Province." Though this act was not as inclusive as similar ones in Rhode Island and Pennsylvania, which brought theists within their purview, it was another in a series of progressive measures taken by early American colonists to emancipate themselves from the European belief in enforced religious uniformity.


So, yes, Christians were the first to colonise America. They were also escaping Christians. As the American population diversified, with Jews and additional Christian denominations setlling, they began to realise the importance of the Separation of Church and State. They understood that should one dogma take precedent over another, all hell will pay.

No one wants to take your personal God away from you. What they don't want is you forcing your personal God down people's throats and trying to get your own brand or sect into the front row, which is with government - local and federal, because this is the kind of thing that leads to a theocracy, and we all know who the theocracies of the world are and how they perform. Even your very own Christian history suggests that that was the very thing you were escaping - a theocracy that another sect disagreed with and were persecuted for.

And should that happen again, only this time in America - well, I'm sorry but most places have already been colonised by someone else now, and those that haven't are the places you really don't want to pioneer.

No one particular religion, or sect within a religion, should be accorded public funds or public land, or government endorsement. This does not mean that anyone wants to tear down your churches or your faith, it's just that it has no place in a pluralistic society. A single government endorsed religion, or specific sect within a religion, threatens to become tyranny, and you will have exactly the thing you were initially escaping all those many, many years ago.

 

[Yitzchak]

*mods, go ahead and move this if necessary...wasn't sure where to put it. Thought here since it is in response the current events in Alabama*

Why do people say things like this ...."This is part of a larger plan to remove every vestige of faith or reverence for God from the public square. That's where this is headed." (james dobson)

I don't need agreement from the majority regarding my god in my everyday life. Why do you (those who agree)?? Are you afraid that if people are not reminded of Christianity every time they turn around, it will lose followers? I don't understand what the "big deal " is...please explain.

My opinion. things are changing drastically in our culture. When I was a child, we said the pledge allegiance every morning in public school and it included the phrase "under God" in it. songs like God bless America were song ont he 4th of July. As has already been cited by one poster: simply do some research into religious expression in government. The constitutional convention opened with prayer and not a wishy washy prayer either. Monuments, courthouses, bible reading and prayer in schools.
What I am saying is this. To understand the emotions involved, one must see the overview. There have been thousands of small changes over the past thirty years. All or most of them for less religious expression, seldom for more relgious expression. the trend is for less and less religious expression tolerated in public.
There are many examples I can cite from my own experience in evangelical circles. A school teacher threatened with being fired if he didn't stop bringing his bible to school to read during his lunch break. My own daughter told she cannot bow her head to pray over her meal in the lunch room at public school. A girl from our church told she would have to remove references to Jesus as the inspiration for her successes when she gave her speech at high school commencement. That is on the one side. On the other there are examples of many friends feeling that views they strongly disagree with are forced on them or their children. One example is evolution being taught in schools. I could make a long list of these too.
So it is a major change. And the trend seems to be headed in the direction of a less friendly atmosphere for christians in this nation. I think these quotes are attempts to rally people behind reversing the trend.

 

[lunachick]

A school teacher threatened with being fired if he didn't stop bringing his bible to school to read during his lunch break. My own daughter told she cannot bow her head to pray over her meal in the lunch room at public school.

See, I just see that as petty. If the man wants to quietly read his bible in his own lunch break, he should be allowed to without any hassles. Same with your daughter. If she wants to quietly pray over her meal, then let her.

A girl from our church told she would have to remove references to Jesus as the inspiration for her successes when she gave her speech at high school commencement.

I can't make up my mind about this one. This, to me, is a grey area. It's almost prosetylising rather than just giving thanks. Giving thanks to Jesus for her inspiration she can do privately. If you had a more tolerant society all round, then i would see no problem. But you don't, so I'm of two minds on this one.

On the other there are examples of many friends feeling that views they strongly disagree with are forced on them or their children. One example is evolution being taught in schools.

hey, there are sects that think math is evil and of the devil. If these kids are in a public school, then they should learn the curriculum. Math, evolution, etc, etc. Creationism is solely a religious theory and is best taught at home, or within private religious schools.

And the trend seems to be headed in the direction of a less friendly atmosphere for christians in this nation.

Not just Christians. You have a nation that is unfriendly to diversity, it seems!

As far as I can see, you guys over there really need to get your **** together. The world is changing, people are moving, everyone is everywhere - you need to adapt to that.

 

[Yitzchak]

One personal example. My daughter who was 7 years old at the time was enrolled in public school. Our family never celebrated halloween for religious reasons. Anyway, the school refused to honor christmas and easter any longer because of "seperation of church and state" and discouraged my child from talking about those holidays in school at that time of year.
However they had a huge celebration of Halloween. which is understandable because it involves dressing up and candy and things that children generally respond to. But in my thinking halloween has religious themes which I don't agree with. So for two whole weeks my daughter was bombarded with halloween themes in her class at school. Witchcraft stories and spells, ghosts, monsters, spirits, etc. She was also introduced to stories about "freddy" and horror film talk from other students since after all it was Halloween.
Anyway, the teacher planned a little skit/play where the children would act out a halloween book she had been reading to the class for the past two weeks. When I saw that my daughter was scheduled to be a witch and cast spells during the play I made an appointment and requested of the teacher that my daughter be exempted under reliigous reasons. The day of the play I showed up with the other parents and saw my daughter dressed up as a witch and playing the original part the teacher had promised she would not have her in.
I was placed in a very awkward position as a parent. after the play I complained to the teacher who said simply that she was busy and had forgotten. I asked how she could forget when i took off work and made a special appointment and we had a long conversation about it. At which point she admitted that she had intentionally did it because I was a religious bigot and didn't have a right to ask what I did.
Add to this, my daughter coming home talking about many political and religious and moral issues from a perspective which I find disagreeable and I can understand the feeling that we are in a hostile environment to raise a christian child. And this is only the public school system. Multiply that to include all other public arenas and think about the emotions involved and you will be a step closer to understanding the frustration.

 

[whitestar]

I agree that NO reglion should be forced on anyone...that is NOT what Christiany is about...

My point, which I guess few if any see, is that IF they take God (the Christian God) totally out of the government, that is making it so for EVERY reglion to be moved out of the government, country. Even athesis is considered a reglion...look up the word 'reglion' in the dictionary sometime...its means a belief in something...

So IF the judge loses this that THIS amendment in the constitution means nothing anymore....another one of our rights gone:

Amendments to the Constitution
CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PROPOSED BY CONGRESS, AND RATIFIED BY THE LEGISLATURES OF THE SEVERAL STATES, PURSUANT TO THE FIFTH ARTICLE OF THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION (See Note 12)

Article [I.] (See Note 13)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

No where does it say anything about seperation of the church and state...its SAY congress cannot interfer with the freedom of reglion...

reglion can be ANY reglion, not just the Christian reglion So if they can shove out the Christian reglion...then is the muslism reglion next? Catholics? Jews? Buddism? Athesis? All of these fall under the term reglion...

So again I say, people aren't not seeing the big picture here...if the government can rewrite out contitution and take away another one of our rights...then they CAN in the future FORCE a ONE WORLD REGLION on all of us!

This is what I am talking about...this isn't going to just affect one reglion...it will affect all!

Then a new wonder leader will have this great idea about bringing all reglions together to stop all this fighting...a one world reglion...and it WILL be forced on everyone.

Revelation 13

16 He required everyone--great and small, rich and poor, slave and free--to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. 17 And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. 18 Wisdom is needed to understand this. Let the one who has understanding solve the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[1] His number is 666.

People will HAVE to woship this great leader as part of this new reglion too...and pledge to him and accept...possible a mico chip in the hand...use that instead of checks, credit cards...ect...

I hope someone out there understands what I am talking about...

God bless
whitestar

 

[bigfws]

As followers of Christ we are at war with the world, the flesh and the devil. We are in a battle no one wants to fight and every one wants to win. Life can be hard at times because we don't know how devastating these battles can be. The world have you think it is ok to eat, drink, and be merry. The pleasures of this world have no limits. The devil is the master of all lies and deception. He use's fear to feed the uncertainty of life and to crush the Hope Christ has provided. This battle is difficult and often overwhelming, but PRAISE GOD the outcome is certain, CHRIST has won..... So people lets get off the fence and do what he put us here for, in this day and time, to evangelize the world to spread the GOOD NEWS OF THE GOSPEL. Paul in his letter to Timothy said to fight the good fight, to maintain the faith,and to live with a good conscience that everthing is being done to bring honor and glory to our God. We may be called idiots, over zelious, fanatic's and a host of other names, But PRAISE GOD WHAT WE DO WE DO FOR OUR REDEEMER.

 

[Yitzchak]

See, I just see that as petty. If the man wants to quietly read his bible in his own lunch break, he should be allowed to without any hassles. Same with your daughter. If she wants to quietly pray over her meal, then let her.

This one is just a misunderstanding of application of the law by school officials who are so afraid of a lawsuit because of religion that they go overboard. But in practical reality, these instances are not uncommon and it ends up feeling like a constant fight to be able to be a christian in the public schools.

hey, there are sects that think math is evil and of the devil. If these kids are in a public school, then they should learn the curriculum. Math, evolution, etc, etc. Creationism is solely a religious theory and is best taught at home, or within private religious schools.

The difference here being that first of all evolution is a theory and goes beyond science into the realm of religious theory where Math doesn't.

You have a nation that is unfriendly to diversity, it seems!

Yes, this is sadly very true.

 

[bigfws]

Evolution is a theory, can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that man evolved and was not created. It can't be done, so lets also teach the creation theory as well.

 

[whitestar]

hey, there are sects that think math is evil and of the devil. If these kids are in a public school, then they should learn the curriculum. Math, evolution, etc, etc. Creationism is solely a religious theory and is best taught at home, or within private religious schools.



Not just Christians. You have a nation that is unfriendly to diversity, it seems!

As far as I can see, you guys over there really need to get your **** together. The world is changing, people are moving, everyone is everywhere - you need to adapt to that.

And may I remind you evolution is JUST a theroy..in which now they are proving the very icons of evolution have been faked or outright lied about....its NEVER been fact...just taught that way and also crammed down our throats.

Your last comment...about us needing to adapt...that is excatly what we, as Christians, are not suppose to do...we live in the world but are NOT to be of the world. Just because its cool with others,...doesn't make it ok.

If we have to accept others points of views ...why can't they accept ours? Isn't this like reverse discrimmation?

God bless
whitestar

 

[strathyboy]

So IF the judge loses this that THIS amendment in the constitution means nothing anymore....another one of our rights gone:

Which specific rights have you lost?

 

[whitestar]

What rights have we lost...well as I was reading through the US contitution trying to find where it even said ANYTHING about seperation of the church and state..which by the way its does NOT!!!! You all have been buffoled into believing this...

I found too many other rights where things just aren't so firm anymore...especially since 911...here is an example of one:


Article [IV.]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Now IF they THINK you are a terrorist...you have no rights, they can tap your phones, follow you, go into your home without a search warrent and on and on. This one poor guy gave up traveling by plane because his name somehow got put in an FBI terroizt list and he can't seem to get it off of there...even though he has been checked out a million times.

Just look at this other fellow, a professor I think he is that for some werid reason the FBI was sure he was the one making the anthax that went out in the mail and killed several people right after 911...they even drained a large pond looking for evidences....have been through ALL this personal items, home, ect many many time...he is getting ready to sue them for 'ruining his life' as he put it.

I remember years ago a friend of mine was being stalked by this guy and filed a complaint. Well she finally got a warrent for this guy to be arrested...well this man having rights, did NOT have to answer the door when the police knocked...and so he didn't. The police HAD to catch him outside of his house before they could arrest him. Now...depending on the situation....they can go right in and seize him and everything he has and hold him for as long as they want too...they don't even have to have probable cause...

Doesn't anyone remember how after 911 when they said they were going to have to tighten things up and so many people were complaining about their rights beign voilated? Most, though didn't mind as they just wanted to be safe...but as always, the govenment goes too far. Just watch the news..

The biggest complaint I here about now is the Patiroate Act (ok so I can't spell...sorry)

God bless
whitestar

 

[Reader Nilus]

It is not big deal for me. The state has no business teaching religion in any form. Say that it becomes a Christian State, what doctrine? Baptist, Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, just which one of these Christian Traditions is going to be used? What about a Baptist that would take exception to Orthodox veneration of ikons? Or a Lutheran who would take exception to believer's only baptism of the Baptists?
If one wants one's children to learn the faith, well that is what the home, church and Sunday Schools are for.
Jeff the Finn