Why wouldn't God just predestine everyone? How could it possibly be for His greater glory to only choose some, rather than all? Wouldn't He be most glorified if everyone loves Him?
It doesn't make sense...
It doesn't make sense...
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Why?
- Thread starter HeDied4Me
- Start date
Beoga
Sola Scriptura
HeDied4Me said:
I think these questions have stemmed out of a false understanding of God's attributes (not saying that you have a false understanding). To be sure, God is a God of love. Yet, God is also a God of Wrath. God is infinite in His being, which (I think would) means that God is infinite in his attributes. God is not "more love" than He is "wrath." He is equal in His love as He is in His wrath. This means God is glorified when he demonstrates all of His attributes. So, to rephrase, Gos is glorified in His Wrath and in His Love, and not glorified in His love to the neglect of His other attributes.
Also, God is most glorified because he says he is most Glorified in what He has decided to do.
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littleapologist said:
Thanks for the reply.
But wasn't Jesus's sacrifice sufficient to display the results of "God's Wrath"? Everyone could be chosen, without neglect of God's Justice or Wrath, because Jesus's death was sufficient for all. So I don't really see that as resolving the question...
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arunma
Flaming Calvinist
HeDied4Me said:
Keep in mind that human logic fails when attempting to understand God. The Apostles teach us that God prepared some vessels for destruction, in order to show his glory. At the same time, it says that God desires for everyone to come to repentence. Yet,
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 2:24-25)
The "may perhaps" certainly stuck out to me. Why does God do things this way? I don't know, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?" (Romans 9:20). It isn't my place to question why God works in certain ways, only to understand to the best of my abilities how he works.
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Rick Otto
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But He DID predestine everyone!
Try to imagine how mercy could exist if there was no justice?
The cross wouldn't have happened if not for predestination.
It isn't about God being a control-freak, tho.
He's omniscient & omnipotent, so it's natural for Him to know everything before it happens, and not simply clairvoyantly, rather He knows because He created, & did so with purpose.
Ours is simply a problem of perspective.
Try to imagine how mercy could exist if there was no justice?
The cross wouldn't have happened if not for predestination.
It isn't about God being a control-freak, tho.
He's omniscient & omnipotent, so it's natural for Him to know everything before it happens, and not simply clairvoyantly, rather He knows because He created, & did so with purpose.
Ours is simply a problem of perspective.
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Rick Otto said:But He DID predestine everyone!
Try to imagine how mercy could exist if there was no justice?
The cross wouldn't have happened if not for predestination.
It isn't about God being a control-freak, tho.
He's omniscient & omnipotent, so it's natural for Him to know everything before it happens, and not simply clairvoyantly, rather He knows because He created, & did so with purpose.
Ours is simply a problem of perspective.
If God chose to save everyone by changing their hearts, that wouldn't be unjust...
What do you mean by "he DID predestine everyone"? Do you believe that He predestined everyone for salvation?
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arunma said:
Yes, but when our understanding of the way God works seems to contradict what He said (He desires for everyone to come to repentance) then it's very important to question it... I'm a Calvinist, but this question has been bothering me for a long time.
If God really wants everyone to come to repentance, and He changes people's hearts, then why would He not cause everyone to come to repentance? He certainly could... Jesus's death was sufficient for all...
(I'm not trying to debate... Just trying to understand this a little better...)
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Imblessed
Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage
HeDied4Me said:
arielle,
I think you aren't the only one who tries, and fails to understand it. The simple (even if it's not enough for us humans) fact is that that's the way God decided to do it, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Paul spoke specifically to that point in Romans 9.
Life would be ever so much easier if God had decided to save everyone wouldn't it? But I honestly don't think that God could be fully glorified if He had chose to do it that way. It's kind of hard to Glorify God's Grace when you don't see His Wrath.
I think littleapologist put it quite well actually........
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The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(2Pe 3:9)
"To us-ward" is the key phrase here. He is not addressing the whole of mankind, but the church. He is not willing that any of His own should perish, and they will not. What God wills He performs perfectly and precisely, and nothing exists that can change that.
(2Pe 3:9)
"To us-ward" is the key phrase here. He is not addressing the whole of mankind, but the church. He is not willing that any of His own should perish, and they will not. What God wills He performs perfectly and precisely, and nothing exists that can change that.
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Imblessed said:
Okay, Romans 9... I'll have to read that again and see what it says. Thanks.
But that implies that Jesus's death on the cross was not sufficient for all of mankind... God already showed us His wrath, when His own son took what we deserved.
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Defcon
------ Dr. Greg Bahnsen
I think it is important to note that Calvinists don't dispute the infinite value of Christ's death - but we understand that value is not the same as the intent. If God intended to throw all of His wrath for each and every person on Christ - then what would be left for them to be judged for? But since we know all are not saved, then obviously God's wrath still burns against the non-elect.HeDied4Me said:
There are Scripture references to point to this limited intent; His sacrifice being a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45), dying specifically for the Church (for her - not each and every individual) Ephesians 5:25, these are just a few....
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Defcon said:
I agree.
What I mean, though, is that it doesn't make sense to say that "if everyone was chosen, then God's wrath would not be shown", because in that case, God's wrath could have been shown entirely through Christ's death.
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Jon_
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I'm sorry, dear, but Scripture doesn't provide an answer to this question. In fact, Paul rebukes those who ask it (Rom. 9:20). Better to be fearfully thankful than full of fruitless inquiries.HeDied4Me said:
Soli Deo Gloria
Jon
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Imblessed
Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that at all. I definately think the death was sufficient for all, I just don't think He actually died for everyone. Only the Church, His bride.HeDied4Me said:Okay, Romans 9... I'll have to read that again and see what it says. Thanks.
But that implies that Jesus's death on the cross was not sufficient for all of mankind... God already showed us His wrath, when His own son took what we deserved.
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Jon_
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Take solace in his grace and love for you. So great is his love that he sent Jesus Christ to bear the punishment that you had earned. Thank him for his wonderful mercy and love, that he chose you, one of the few among the many, to be adopted as his child and made heir with Christ to his Kingdom. Put your confidence, glory, and trust in him. Delight yourself in his ways and he will poor out untold blessings upon you.HeDied4Me said:Yes, I guess that's true.
Soli Deo Gloria
Jon
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Rick Otto
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"If God chose to save everyone by changing their hearts, that wouldn't be unjust...
What do you mean by "he DID predestine everyone"? Do you believe that He predestined everyone for salvation?"
Maybe so, but then why create in a way that allows hearts to NEED changing in the 1st place?
No, not ALL for salvation...
2Pe 2:12 - "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,..."
I think God 'wants all to come to repentance' is an expression of preference like, "I desire to be happy all the time", but not a reflection of reality like, "I desire to be happy all the time, but I like having clean dishes & laundry, too."
What do you mean by "he DID predestine everyone"? Do you believe that He predestined everyone for salvation?"
Maybe so, but then why create in a way that allows hearts to NEED changing in the 1st place?
No, not ALL for salvation...
2Pe 2:12 - "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,..."
I think God 'wants all to come to repentance' is an expression of preference like, "I desire to be happy all the time", but not a reflection of reality like, "I desire to be happy all the time, but I like having clean dishes & laundry, too."
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