Why you don't commune children?

[FireDragon76]

Can you explain what you mean by the subjectivity of the individual? If a young child individual wants to participate in communion, may they?

I have encouraged pastor to consider that, especially as I am convinced there is one little 4-year old girl in our congregation that is exceptionally intelligent and curious, but ultimately I respect his bound conscience on the matter. Personally, I don't think anyone who wants to receive communion should be turned away, but I'm not the pastor and I respect the good order of the church.

Subjectivity would be closer to what one might consider mysticism- how the individual person experiences God in their inner life. Luther's theology is rooted in medieval mysticism, in contrast to the prevailing scholasticism of the era.

 

[FireDragon76]

But they baptize children though.

That's true, and Lutherans at least do believe in a sort of baptismal regeneration, in that we believe infants who are baptized have actual faith.

 

[FireDragon76]

Another thing that might be a factor- Lutherans accept that not everything must make sense or be quite theologically correct in terms of fitting together perfectly in the way an Orthodox Christian might. So we probably don't have the same sort of sensibility that other churches might on this issue, or many others (our social statements can be very confusing to read in that regard if you are used to reading Catholic and Orthodox ones). To some this might appear a bit incoherent, perhaps... but we don't really regard religion as being about that sort of thing in the first place (big ideas and big narratives). So we'ld probably accept the criticism of our practices and just use it to remind ourselves to stay humble and thank God for that gift.

Pastor blesses little children and babies and we have a children's sermon- it's not like we don't consider our children to be Christians. We just haven't ever felt the need to give them communion.

 

[Tree of Life]

I would be interested in discussing that topic.

Communion requires self-examination (1 Corinthians 11:28).

 

[-Sasha-]

I have encouraged pastor to consider that, especially as I am convinced there is one little 4-year old girl in our congregation that is exceptionally intelligent and curious, but ultimately I respect his bound conscience on the matter. Personally, I don't think anyone who wants to receive communion should be turned away, but I'm not the pastor and I respect the good order of the church.

Subjectivity would be closer to what one might consider mysticism- how the individual person experiences God in their inner life. Luther's theology is rooted in medieval mysticism, in contrast to the prevailing scholasticism of the era.

On a mystery/mystic vs legalistic/scholastic scale, I certainly wouldn't put Eastern Orthodoxy very far toward the latter, though we do have rules about who can participate in communion in our Church...namely, people who have been baptised into the church. I guess I had a specific example in mind with my question: children in my parish. I've seen two year olds run joyously to the chalice to partake. I've learned things about the church and Scripture from having conversations with five year olds. I just can't imagine an explanation as to why they shouldn't be able to commune...even before they are old enough to be able to go to confession, they still are God's children and have a personal relationship with Him, even if it is in a different way than the intelligent well-read adults.

 

[-Sasha-]

This would also prompt me to ask, what about adult members of the church who have severe mental disabilities and aren't ever going to be capable of things like a deep understanding of the Creed, or self-examination, etc.? Are they allowed to commune in a Lutheran/Anglican church?

 

[FireDragon76]

On a mystery/mystic vs legalistic/scholastic scale, I certainly wouldn't put Eastern Orthodoxy very far toward the latter, though we do have rules about who can participate in communion in our Church...namely, people who have been baptised into the church. I guess I had a specific example in mind with my question: children in my parish. I've seen two year olds run joyously to the chalice to partake. I've learned things about the church and Scripture from having comversations with five year olds. I just can't imagine an explanation as to why they shouldn't be able to commune...even before they are old enough to be able to go to confession, they still are God's children and have a personal relationship with Him, even if it is in a different way than the intelligent well-read adults.

Another thing to consider is that in Lutheranism, the sacrament is primarily pro me , "for me". Grace is always "for me". We do not believe in a hypothetical grace or mercy, but actual grace or mercy. That's what I mean by subjectivity. We don't see the sacrament as much as a sign of unity between Christians, but God speaking to each of us personally. So that's probably why we don't see ourselves as "excluding" children, because they can't even understand what sin or grace is.

I probably only feel that way I do because I come from an Orthodox background myself. But most people at church muddle along and just don't really question it. Lutherans are pragmatic and that's really what drives us much of the time. If it works and its not broken, we don't fix it. And like I said, the focus in the sacrament is an individual encounter with God.

This would also prompt me to ask, what about adult members of the church who have severe mental disabilities and aren't ever going to be capable of things like a deep understanding of the Creed, or self-examination, etc.? Are they allowed to commune in a Lutheran/Anglican church?

It has never come up, so I don't know.

We don't require people to know the creed, just to understand they are sinners. It's not an intellectual test in that sense.

 

[-Sasha-]

Another thing to consider is that in Lutheranism, the sacrament is primarily pro me , "for me". Grace is always "for me". We do not believe in a hypothetical grace or mercy, but actual grace or mercy. That's what I mean by subjectivity. We don't see the sacrament as much as a sign of unity between Christians, but God speaking to each of us personally. So that's probably why it doesn't occur to us to commune children.

I probably only feel that way I do because I come from an Orthodox background myself. But most people at church muddle along and just don't really question it. Lutherans are pragmatic and that's really what drives us much of the time. If it works and its not broken, we don't fix it. And like I said, the focus in the sacrament is an individual encounter with God.

Well I would agree with that; it is indeed an individual encounter with God. What I'm questioning is the reasoning behind saying that infants and children are any less in need of that than adults are?

 

[FireDragon76]

Well I would agree with that; it is indeed an individual encounter with God. What I'm questioning is the reasoning behind saying that infants and children are any less in need of that than adults are?

A child that has been baptized has been adopted as God's own child. We do not have this emphasis of God judging Christians in the way that some Orthodox do- the judgment was rendered upon Christ, not us. In baptism, our children have Christ's righteousness imputed to them, meaning God sees them as if they were innocent and sinless. There is even an aspect of mystical union implicit in Baptism itself, just as there is in Holy Communion.

Maybe that is another potential clarification? We simply don't worry about our kids until they are old enough to worry for themselves.

 

[Not David]

Also, through baptism, they are part of the Church so it is weird thinking children couldn't commune.

 

[-Sasha-]

A child that has been baptized has been adopted as God's own child. We do not have this emphasis of God judging Christians in the way that some Orthodox do- the judgment was rendered upon Christ, not us. In baptism, our children have Christ's righteousness imputed to them, meaning God sees them as if they were innocent and sinless.

Maybe that is another potential clarification? We simply don't worry about our kids until they are old enough to worry for themselves.

I think we are talking past each other here. Yes, the infants have put on Christ in baptism. Is the idea then, that they have sufficient grace until some future time when they understand sin, and simply do not need to encounter Christ personally through communing until then? That this is only of benefit to people who have fallen away in some manner?

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that someone who, as you say, is innocent and sinless, ought not to have as frequent a personal encounter with God as possible.

 

[Danielwright2311]

God chooses you , you dont choose god.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think we are talking past each other here. Yes, the infants have put on Christ in baptism. Is the idea then, that they have sufficient grace

Grace isn't sufficient or insufficient. It's God's unmerited favor and God's gift of himself. The idea that there could even be insufficient grace just doesn't occur in the Lutheran mind. Grace isn't like Pac-Man scurrying around to get more pellets or Mario jumping around to collect coins.

...until some future time when they understand sin, and simply do not need to encounter Christ personally through communing until then? That this is only of benefit to people who have fallen away in some manner?

Yes. But it's really not a question of "if", in our minds. We have a different view of sin and are influenced more by Augustine.

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that someone who, as you say, is innocent and sinless, ought not to have as frequent a personal encounter with God as possible.

We are taught to have bold confidence in grace.

People can encounter God any time God wills to do so. Sacraments allow people to find peace in Christ and the assurance of God's grace. Assurance is crucial to understanding Lutheranism, because Orthodox don't really preach about it much, if at all, in my experience. So it might be foreign.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I would be interested in discussing that topic.

The Eastern Churches DO give communion to infants right after their baptism and Chrismation.

Sometime between 8 and 10, they make their first confession when the priest and parents believe the child is ready.

 

[Albion]

Why not? What does an adult who has been baptised and who has made full confessions of their sins lack, which an infant does not lack?

He is of age and therefore is capable of committing sin. The Eucharist imparts grace, but all that the sacrament means is also there for an adult to appreciate, whereas no infant can.

 

[-Sasha-]

but all that the sacrament means is also there for an adult to appreciate, whereas no infant can.

It is a matter of infants lacking intellectual understanding of the sacrament which precludes them from partaking?

 

[FireDragon76]

Also, through baptism, they are part of the Church so it is weird thinking children couldn't commune.

Western Christianity has this idea of different sacraments being structured for different parts of life. It's the old "7 sacraments" idea.

Lutherans still retain vestiges of this, I guess, as do Anglicans.

At baptism we often sign a hymn, Borning Cry, that is about this theme, about the abiding presence of God during different stages of our life. But it begins with a refrain about baptism, and is interspersed throughout the hymn. Perhaps that helps clarify the place of the sacraments in our mind? Baptism is central, not the Lord's Supper.

 

[Albion]

It is a matter of infants lacking intellectual understanding of the sacrament which precludes them from partaking?

No, but there is a reason why adults need the sacrament, unlike small children.

Again, the issue in this mini-debate concerns the idea of "needs," not "benefits from" or is "eligible to partake," etc.

 

[-Sasha-]

No, but there is a reason why adults need the sacrament, unlike small children.

Again, the issue in this mini-debate concerns the idea of "needs," not "benefits from" or is "eligible to partake," etc.

What specifically is the need which adults (who have been baptised and continually confessed their sins) possess, that an infant does not? And fwiw I'm not approaching this as a debate, I just don't understand your guy's perspective on this.

 

[Albion]

What specifically is the need which adults (who have been baptised and continually confessed their sins) possess, that an infant does not?

You believe, I assume, that the sacrament gives grace for daily living, for decision making, for growth in the faith, etc. Think about it.