Why would the world mourn when they behold Jesus appear on the cloud ?

[BABerean2]

If this takes place immediately after the tribulation of those days how can it be talking about a Second Advent which is in the future?

This verse as well...and in Mark and Luke
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Thank you for taking so much of your time to answer in your last post. You must get tried of repeating yourself as often as I have seen you do in these threads. Patience is a virtue, I have been told.

There are two questions and two answers in the Olivet Discourse.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of your "parousia".

Matthew's Gospel mixes the two, which can cause confusion.
Dr. Luke's Gospel provides a more clear timeline.
The dividing point is Luke 21:24b.

Matthew 24:34 is a reference to the first question. See also Luke 19:41-44.

The "times of the Gentiles" in Luke 21:24 is the time that began in the first century and will continue until the future Second Coming of Christ.
Paul makes a reference to this same time period in Romans 11:25.
Paul's reference should help us understand the " times of the Gentiles" is most of the Church Age.


Look at what Simeon said about the baby Jesus, in reference to the Gentiles.

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.


There is also a direct link between the signs in the sun, moon, and stars in the Olivet Discourse and the Second Coming of Christ found in Revelation chapter 6.
(The moon does not give its light during a "Blood Moon".) At the end of chapter 6 we find those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. They would not be hiding unless the Lamb is present at this point in time. Some of the same characters are found in chapter 19, (captains. mighty men, bond, free). The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. It is a series of overlapping visions.

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[Hank77]

The church will not be watching the sun and the moon being darkened and the stars/asteroids falling because it happens immediately after the tribulation.

I don't agree that that verse is talking about asteroids, anymore than the same saying means asteroids anywhere else in the Bible.

Speaking to the destruction of Babylon....
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
......
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
.....
Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
.....
Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[Hank77]

There are two questions and two answers in the Olivet Discourse.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of your "parousia".

Matthew's Gospel mixes the two, which can cause confusion.
Dr. Luke's Gospel provides a more clear timeline.
The dividing point is Luke 21:24b.

Matthew 24:34 is a reference to the first question. See also Luke 19:41-44.

The "times of the Gentiles" in Luke 21:24 is the time that began in the first century and will continue until the future Second Coming of Christ.
Paul makes a reference to this same time period in Romans 11:25.
Paul's reference should help us understand the " times of the Gentiles" is most of the Church Age.


Look at what Simeon said about the baby Jesus, in reference to the Gentiles.

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.


There is also a direct link between the signs in the sun, moon, and stars in the Olivet Discourse and the Second Coming of Christ found in Revelation chapter 6.
(The moon does not give its light during a "Blood Moon".) At the end of chapter 6 we find those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. They would not be hiding unless the Lamb is present at this point in time. Some of the same characters are found in chapter 19, (captains. mighty men, bond, free). The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. It is a series of overlapping visions.

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You can't explain 'immediately after this tribulation'. You are saying there is a great gap, not immediately but after the time of the Gentiles. And yet....

Jesus talking to His disciples that stood before Him....
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

All the world, the whole earth, etc. is speaking about Israel, Israelites, the Jews....
Luke 2:1 could not be about the whole world because Roman Empire didn't control the whole world. Not only that there isn't any record of the whole of the Roman Empire being taxed or there being a census with a new tax by Caesar Augustus, which further confines the meaning of the whole world to the land of Israel.

Consider that when the Apostles asked about the end of the world, Jesus told them about the end of their world, the world that they knew, the Mosaic economy, the temple, Jerusalem, and the Jews being the only children of God, rather than the end of the world thousand or more years later. Surely He wasn't telling them to be watchful for something that would happen that far in the future.

 

[BABerean2]

You can't explain 'immediately after this tribulation'. You are saying there is a great gap, not immediately but after the time of the Gentiles. And yet....

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days= when the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

In Luke 21:24 this time period comes after the destruction of Jerusalem.

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[Hank77]

Matthew 24:34 is a reference to the first question

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In the normal conversation it would be that everything that had been said before this verse would be fulfilled in the generation they were living in.

 

[Hank77]

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days= when the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

In Luke 21:24 this time period comes after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Who is 'your' in verse 28?

 

[BABerean2]

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Who is 'your' in verse 28?

Joh 5:27　 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.　

Joh 5:28　 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,　

Joh 5:29　 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.　

Joh 5:30　 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.　


On the day of His Second Coming the men He was speaking to in the Olivet Discourse will be resurrected from the dead.

Mar 13:3　 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,　


The timing is found in the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.
They will be rewarded as His servants.

Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　

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[Hank77]

On the day of His Second Coming the men He was speaking to in the Olivet Discourse will be resurrected from the dead.

I agree.

Sorry, but I'm not getting your point for posting this scripture.

 

[BABerean2]

Sorry, but I'm not getting your point for posting this scripture.

I was asked who the "you" would be.

It includes the 4 disciples He was speaking to during the first century as well as the rest of us who belong to Him.

We are to "look up" because He is going to be coming down.

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[Hank77]

I was asked who the "you" would be.

It includes the 4 disciples He was speaking to during the first century as well as the rest of us who belong to Him.

We are to "look up" because He is going to be coming down.

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Thanks.

I believe He was talking to the disciples standing there and because they were the Apostles they were to tell the other believers living in the first century to be watching for the signs so they would know when to flee to the mountains.
I don't believe that any of those scriptures are talking about the Second Advent and I don't believe they were meant for anyone after the first century.

Thanks again, I thought maybe there was something you knew that I didn't know or I was missing in these verses.
God Bless

 

[BABerean2]

I don't believe that any of those scriptures are talking about the Second Advent

Do you believe Revelation chapter 6 is about the Second Advent?

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[Hank77]

Do you believe Revelation chapter 6 is about the Second Advent?

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No.

I believe Revelation 19 does.

But I don't claim to understand much at all of Revelation.

The Matthew scriptures are not so difficult.

Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;

Mat 26:63 and Jesus was silent. And the chief priest answering said to him, `I adjure thee, by the living God, that thou mayest say to us, if thou art the Christ--the Son of God.'
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith to him, `Thou hast said; nevertheless I say to you, hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming upon the clouds, of the heaven.'
Mat 26:65 Then the chief priest rent his garments, saying, --`He hath spoken evil; what need have we yet of witnesses? lo, now ye heard his evil speaking;
Mat 26:66 what think ye?' and they answering said, `He is worthy of death.'

Was Jesus talking about the Second Advent here in Matt. 26? I don't believe He was.

The Jews understood what He was saying and that this was the language of judgement. The same as coming in judgement in Revelation 19 but at a different time and encompassing all the people of the literal world rather than the Mosaic world of the Jews who would not believe.

 

[BABerean2]

No.

I believe Revelation 19 does.

But I don't claim to understand much at all of Revelation.

The Second Coming is found at the end of chapter 6 with the "mighty men", "captains", "free" and "bond", which are also found in chapter 19, hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, and at the 7th trumpet and time of the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 11, and in the harvest of chapter 14, and in chapter 16 when He comes as at thief, and in chapter 19.

The book is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of visions that repeat themselves.

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[Hank77]

The Second Coming is found at the end of chapter 6 with the "mighty men", "captains", "free" and "bond",

Maybe but this could be referring to the fall of the Roman Empire when judgement fell on it for their part in the death of the Christ and their continued persecution of the Christians that they found terrible ways to put to death. The martyrs under the altar would include these.

 

[BABerean2]

Maybe but this could be referring to the fall of the Roman Empire when judgement fell on it for their part in the death of the Christ and their continued persecution of the Christians that they found terrible ways to put to death. The martyrs under the altar would include these.

The following are three different descriptions of His Second Coming.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

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[Hank77]

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

What do you believe the mountains and islands represent?

 

[BABerean2]

What do you believe the mountains and islands represent?

Peter was looking for this present earth to be destroyed on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and in its place would be found the New Heavens and the New Earth.
(This language also connects the event to 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, and Revelation 16:15-16.)

It is my humble opinion that when the heel mentioned in Genesis 3:15 touches this planet at His Second Coming it will begin a chain reaction that will destroy this present world.

An earthquake that would move every island and mountain out of its place in Revelation 6:14, which is the greatest earthquake in history in Revelation 16:18 would describe the beginning of the event Peter was looking for.

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[God bless Joshua]

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

People will faint from a catastrophy of falling stars

Luke 21:26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

 

[Hank77]

People will faint from a catastrophy of falling stars

Luke 21:26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

Prophetic language, not literal.

 

[Hank77]

An earthquake that would move every island and mountain out of its place in Revelation 6:14, which is the greatest earthquake in history in Revelation 16:18 would describe the beginning of the event Peter was looking for.

An earthquake that will effect every mountain and island around the world.
Thanks for clarifying.