Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Indeed!. . .beginning with Mt 25:46.Consider that many of these early leaders were like politicians of today, each with their own views of how a government should be run. Eventually it becomes authoritarian. People are still free to accept or reject their views free of punishment these days. Tradition does not mean truth. We must test everything against scripture in context for what it says knowing it can be subverted to appear to mean what we want it to, and take all with a grain of salt (or garlic) until we do so.
Of course it is. No more chance at redemption. Game over. Do not collect $200, do not pass Go. Deleted from the recycle bin. It is man that likes to see others suffer, especially when it boosts one's own ego or sense of righteousness OR can be used to keep people living in fear for easier religious containment."Everlasting punishment" (Mt 25:46) is not punishment if you don't exist.
Please see my post #2 this thread where Jesus, Himself, says that many will go away in to "eternal punishment."Just because Jesus talks about dire consequences for sin doesn't necessarily entail "eternal conscious torment" for people that happen to belong to the wrong religion. It's true I can't prove that in some positivist manner, but I don't think the case for the classical western view of perdition is iron-clad.
I have a hard time believing there were modern Homo sapiens for around 70,000 years and they all went to Hell simply for not believing in Jesus. Likewise I have trouble believing that the tens of billions of people that have lived since the time of Christ, and never been in fellowship with any of the Apostles or their successors, have all gone to Hell. If God is so offended by "wrong belief", why are there so many religions?
Jesus is quoted as using the word "death" 18 times. When Jesus meant death He said death.Matthew 25: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
This simply states that the second death unlike the first will be permanent/everlasting. No more salvation. Only the righteous shall receive life eternal, not the damned (they are aware no more).
Please see my post #2 this thread where Jesus, Himself, says that many will go away in to "eternal punishment."
I again refer you to my post #2 this thread. You are arguing against 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship in the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. And I don't think you have the creds for that. You are mistaken there are no, zero, none, Greek words in the N.T. that are "open to interpretation." I think you have been reading faulty sources. I have been opposing this same misinformation at this forum for over 2 decades. As you have correctly observed "aionios" is an adjective, thus it cannot be translated as the noun "age." Nor can it be translated "long lasting" "lasting for an age." etc. Some folks would have us believe that "aionios" is the only Greek adjective which requires 3 or 4 words to translate into English. But stay tuned I am going to show conclusively that "aionios" means "eternal"/"everlasting" etc. using only the words of Jesus.The Greek word is aionios, which is open to interpretation. It is the adjective form of aion which simply means "age". Aionios could simply mean "long-lasting" or "lasting for an age" or "for life". It is true some could translate it as "everlasting", but that's not the only possible meaning.
I have some questions for those who believe that hell is a real place and that the wicked will be punished forever. What would be the purpose of this? What does it accomplish? How does this give glory to God? Why would God require the wicked dead to suffer forever?
I am not looking to debate whether or not hell is real. I don't believe it is; others do. I'm not looking for somebody to prove hell is real. What I seek is Scripture-based answers, answers using verses. I don't want opinions or speculations.
I wonder if that camp even thinks about these questions.
According to the narrative, every goat in hell will be punished forever and ever. Not just a hundred years, a thousand, a million but trillions of years? Doesn't that seem like overkill? Doesn't that seem beyond excessive? God can do as He sees fit, of course. So no amount of punishment ever fits the crimes, right? A thousand years of 24/7, excruciating, non-stop pain and agony isn't even close to being enough punishment, right? Not a thousand, not a million, not a trillion years is even close to unforgiven sin ever being paid for?
This is what you people believe. The idea that God would simply destroy all the goats after judgment day just doesn't make any sense, does it? According to you, God has no mercy and no sense of justice. Just "Let 'em burn," right? "Let them suffer forever," right? To me, this makes God out to be the most sadistic, mean, and petty tyrant one could ever imagine.
Does God want to keep a reminder of sinful men around? Is hell going to be there as a warning to the saints who, after the resurrection, will never commit sin again?
Its meaning is clear in its usage inThe Greek word is aionios, which is open to interpretation. It is the adjective form of aion which simply means "age". Aionios could simply mean "long-lasting" or "lasting for an age" or "for life".
It's the only possible meaning in Mt 25:46, as shown above.It is true some could translate it as "everlasting", but that's not the only possible meaning.
Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it. See my post #2, this thread.These are excellent questions. I really wish you had received an answer from someone, because I am curious about the same thing. (I likewise don't believe in eternal conscious torment, so I am unable to answer such questions.)
This is the part of your post that has been missed or ignored by those who believe and defend the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. So far, they're engaging you with a tone that says they can't believe you would even question the doctrine, or as if you want them to make a case for it, or to debate the matter. Somehow, they have all missed your essential questions (above).
I wonder the same thing. And here is perhaps an even more important question that I don't find any of them contemplating or even taking seriously: What does the doctrine of eternal conscious torment say about God? We have thousands of years of redemptive history proving that God's justice can be satisfied, his wrath can be spent—until we get to this doctrine. Now God's justice is never satisfied, his wrath unending. But for what reason? Is he not sovereign? Do not the wicked in hell exist at his pleasure? He COULD wipe out all traces of sin from creation—but he doesn't? Why does God maintain their existence to torment them for all of eternity? But this all just circles back to your original questions: “What is the purpose? What does it accomplish?”
I've actually heard an answer for this one by someone who believes and defends the doctrine of eternal conscious torment: The punishing never ends because the wicked in hell never stop sinning. So, it's seven years for this sin, 24 years for that sin, two years for this one and 17 for that one, and the cycle of sin and punishment just continues forever without end.
I don't know if all those who believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment stand behind that answer, but at least one of them attempted an answer.
For me, those who are born twice die once (spiritual death), while those who are born once die twice (first spiritual death, then metaphysical death), wherein death means separation from God. To be metaphysically separated from God is to perish—eternal death (an eternal punishment).
That is the logical consequence of their belief. God will wipe out all traces of sin from creation—except he won't. There is forever this little corner over here where sin, pain, sorrow and so forth will exist eternally.
On their view, anyway. On mine, our triune God ultimately triumphs, decisively, finally, and forever. There will be no trace of sin anywhere in all of creation.
The second part of my study of "aionios" in the N.T. The first part is post #28, this thread.
[Previous post continued]
Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
[11]Romans 5:21(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[12]Ephesians 3:21(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[13]Romans 1:20(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:[14]Romans 16:26(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios] In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen. In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[21]Romans 5:21(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[24]1 Peter 1:23(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …1 Peter 1:25(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
[25]1 Peter 5:10(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[26]Revelation 14:11(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη/ou me'] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
While that may be true in some cases I'm certain that the vs. I quoted above Paul is referring to death as the cessation of life and not some figurative use since he juxtaposes death with eternal life.I don't think Paul's use of "life" and "death" can always be taken literally, since he uses "Life" and "death" as symbols, "life" for spiritual awakening or enlightenment, or conversely, being "dead" in ones sins, of having a darkened mind, as often as he is speaking of actual physical death.
"Everlasting punishment" (Mt 25:46) is not punishment if you don't exist.
Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Especially when we see verses like this.Now God's justice is never satisfied, his wrath unending. But for what reason?
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context and ignoring others.Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Especially when we see verses like this.
Ezekiel 18:23 "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"
II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
He takes no delight that the wicked should die and is long suffering not willing that any should perish....
These verses give us the insight on how he feels about the wicked perishing. He doesn't want it to happen. He takes no pleasure it in at all. And yet some would believe he would rather burn someone for an eternity instead of believing Christ when he calls it the second death.
I could state the same for you. Those verses change nothing about the second death. Or the nature of God in that he will not burn someone for an eternity.Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context and ignoring others.
It is very easy to make a statement such as this or that vs. "happens at Judgement day" but another thing altogether to show from scripture that is true. You mention "context" please explain to me how Rev 21:4 says "no more death" but vs. 8 says eight groups of the unrighteous are thrown into the lake of fire which is still called the second death?I could state the same for you. Those verses change nothing about the second death. Or the nature of God in that he will not burn someone for an eternity.
What I don't do is change the very definiton of "second death" to mean a new life in hell. I choose to believe Christ in that it's the second "death". That is everlasting destruction and there's no coming back from that. It also coincides with the context of the entire bible in that one either achieves life or death. You yourself stated many times when Christ states death he means it. Yet you don't believe it when he talks about the second death.
You always post these verses, failing to see the context when you're in this argument.
Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
You seem to believe because of verse 8 that death is still going on and refuse to see the full context of these verses-
Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."
We are being taken back to John at that moment. Something you always fail to see. Christ is stating, write for these words are true...
Revelation 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."
Christ is stating "it is done". We have to take note of that. Something else you refuse to do. You still believe they are describing events unfolding but John doesn't describe anymore until the angel takes him to the new Jersalem.
Christ goes on and reiterates what will happen at Judgement day. Because that day has not arrived yet.
Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Both verses 7 and 8 happen at Judgement Day. They are not still happening after Christ states it is done. He's just stating those facts again to John as he writes. Once Christ states it is done, we can't restart things again and it should not be read that way.
I don't proclaim to be a scholar, far from it. But I've been an avid reader my entire life and context is important. We have to take the bible as a whole, chapter by chapter and verse by verse. And we have to be able to see certain moments like Rev 21:15 which takes us to a different moment/time from the verse before.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
You handle the Scriptures much too loosely to correctly understand them in the context of the whole Bible, thereby producing a theological mish-mash.