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Why would God create a flawed creation?

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Dave Ellis

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:doh:

Tell me where have you ever observed that knowledge could be obtained in an instance of "snapping a finger" by any human in existence. I already said we are not God, therefore it should be clear to you that our process of gaining knowledge cannot happen by a snap of fingers.

Why not make another piece of fruit which would give us that knowledge? It worked for good and evil after all.

That being said, if he's god, snapping his fingers should work. Or simply willing us to know all the relevant information would be enough for an all powerful being.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Repeat: Adam and Eve did not gain any real knowledge from eating that forbidden fruit (and that fruit is certainly not an apple). That statement about becoming like God by merely eating from that tree is a lie from the devil in the first place.

That's not what the bible says.
 
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Dave Ellis

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He Himself didn't die, His Spirit didn't die, only His body, He had a mortal body like all other people, that was able to sin, not a glorified body that couldn't die.

So, wouldn't adam and eve's mortal bodies also only be doing the sinning, and their spirit is fine?
 
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Messy

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So, wouldn't adam and eve's mortal bodies also only be doing the sinning, and their spirit is fine?

Their will was involved, which is part of the soul which is a connection between the spirit they got from God and the body. He said to Cain that he had to reign over that sin, his spirit had to reign. Part of the spirit is the conscience, that's from God.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Cearbhall

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If God was omniscient and omnipotent, then he wouldn't have knowingly created a flawed creation. However, creation is obviously flawed, so one of the following must be true:
You could argue that our perception of what flawed means is actually what's flawed.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Their will was involved, which is part of the soul which is a connection between the spirit they got from God and the body. He said to Cain that he had to reign over that sin, his spirit had to reign. Part of the spirit is the conscience, that's from God.

How do you know that?
 
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ananda

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You could argue that our perception of what flawed means is actually what's flawed.
... or not:

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil ... And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"
 
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WoundedDeep

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Why is that? You are not ethically bound to reciprocate love to anyone regardless of if they made you or not. If your parents abused you as a child, you're fully ethically justified in shutting them out of your life now, even if they still love you.

Are you serious? Reciprocating love to those who give love to you is the most natural human response, in whatever healthy relationships. Relationships with God function that way as well, and God is infinitely more perfect than the most perfect of parents. What then makes you think love from Him should not be reciprocated?

I don't demand worship from the woman of my dreams. In fact I'd have no interest in even dating a woman who didn't consider herself my equal.

That is because the woman of your dreams are essentially as much human as you are. You cannot say the same about God and man and expect God to be your equal, that is absurd. And for the last time, God does not demand anything from you that you are not willing. Worship that is not from the heart is not worship in God's eyes either, so stop labelling Him with that word falsely.

Jealousy denotes personal insecurity. If your goal is to provide the best for everyone, jealousy is not a rational emotional response. Besides, what ultimate moral authority gets jealous?

And like I clearly said, God does not feel jealous in the way a human does. If you don't know, then don't judge.

You do know what commandments are, right? Do the commandments not apply to you?

You quoted from the OT to say that God demands everyone to worship Him. I give you the clear facts that the OT commandments was given to the Israelites when it was first written and was not enforced anywhere else in any other country or race. Therefore your idea that God demands everyone to worship Him is false.

His direct instructions are always given to those who already wish to be His people. It is this case in the OT, it is the same in the NT. You have no history to back up your notion that the commandments of the Bible was EVER forced on the entire world, and therefore you have no backing for your false claim that God demands worship from all.
 
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WoundedDeep

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And what happens to people who choose to not follow your god?

They will corrupt themselves with the world and become more and more like satan (and therefore rendering themselves deserving of punishment), or they will live morally until the day they realise that Yahweh is indeed the true God. Most will choose the first path according to prophecy.
 
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Dave Ellis

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He should be? What if He chooses not to be? Are you saying that is not possible for an omnipotent God?

But he wasn't an omnipotent god, he was just a human while on earth... according to your own argument.
 
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WoundedDeep

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The problem is that contradicts your earlier statement that he wanted Adam and Eve to learn the difference between good and evil.

If that was indeed his plan, then they had to eat the fruit, which would have lead to the fall.

That bolded part is false. And you are also contradicting yourself. You believe God is omnipotent and should have other ways to make us know good and evil, yet here you propose that the fall must happen for God's plan to work. Made up your mind yet?
 
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WoundedDeep

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So god couldn't come up with a better way of imparting that knowledge onto us?

And if the devil serves a purpose, does that mean he is part of god's plan?

Yeah, He could have, but He wants us to choose the way of getting true knowledge. That is why He left the power of choice to Adam and Eve. Is that an offence to you?

Devil or evil was never part of God's plan, but God allowed it and used it for His purpose because He is prepared to handle every circumstance, even if things do not go according to His original intention. That only shows His power and ability to change bad things around, and show that He is indeed an omnipotent God who can deal with things that go out of control.
 
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ananda

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Devil or evil was never part of God's plan, but God allowed it and used it for His purpose because He is prepared to handle every circumstance, even if things do not go according to His original intention. That only shows His power and ability to change bad things around, and show that He is indeed an omnipotent God who can deal with things that go out of control.
If the Devil or evil was not part of God's plan, then it means that he wasn't omniscient.
 
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WoundedDeep

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If the Devil or evil was not part of God's plan, then it means that he wasn't omniscient.

The fact that He did anticipate the coming of evil and the corruption of Lucifer shows He is omniscient. Anticipation does not mean active planning or intention.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Are you serious? Reciprocating love to those who give love to you is the most natural human response, in whatever healthy relationships. Relationships with God function that way as well, and God is infinitely more perfect than the most perfect of parents. What then makes you think love from Him should not be reciprocated?

The important caveat there is "in healthy relationships". Not all love exists within healthy relationships, and in many cases not returning the love of someone is completely justifiable behaviour. As my post stated, abusive parents are an example, an abusive spouse would be another.

That is because the woman of your dreams are essentially as much human as you are. You cannot say the same about God and man and expect God to be your equal, that is absurd. And for the last time, God does not demand anything from you that you are not willing. Worship that is not from the heart is not worship in God's eyes either, so stop labelling Him with that word falsely.

If it means anything, I'm not planning on dating god either.

And like I clearly said, God does not feel jealous in the way a human does. If you don't know, then don't judge.

1) Jealousy is jealousy, that's what the word means. If god feels something other than what we experience as jealousy, then whatever he is feeling isn't jealousy.

2) As for your last sentence, you're asserting I don't know, however how do you know? You have no access to information that I do not, and yet you are judging your god's actions and emotions as well. That's a fairly hypocritical statement.

You quoted from the OT to say that God demands everyone to worship Him. I give you the clear facts that the OT commandments was given to the Israelites when it was first written and was not enforced anywhere else in any other country or race. Therefore your idea that God demands everyone to worship Him is false.

I didn't say God demands everyone on the planet to worship him, but I did say god demands worship (even if it's just from the Israelites). Based on the OT scriptures I posted, my position is correct.

His direct instructions are always given to those who already wish to be His people. It is this case in the OT, it is the same in the NT. You have no history to back up your notion that the commandments of the Bible was EVER forced on the entire world, and therefore you have no backing for your false claim that God demands worship from all.

Again, I never made that claim. However, nowhere does it say the Israelites wished to be his people either... He made them his chosen people (which is rather odd for the creator of all humanity I may add) imposed himself upon them.


As a side point, it's good to know you don't believe the ten commandments apply to you. I assume you support taking them out of all schools, courtrooms and other government offices since they only apply to Israel, right?
 
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