Why would God create a flawed creation?

[WoundedDeep]

we were never arguing that it had to be knowledge of good and evil now did we? after i suggested god could give knowledge of sin easily you claimed humans cant instantly gain knowledge. i showed you that according to your holy book they were given knowledge instantly. are you done shifting goal posts?

Lol? Knowledge of sin is in fact a part of knowledge of good and evil, we were therefore arguing about knowledge of good and evil indeed. Did you lose track of everything in a split second, or were you trying to shift goalposts?

 

[Messy]

And where does that idea come from?

There is a text that He will reconcile all things to Himself, but I was taught that He only died for humans.

If he can't, then it would stand to reason that he wouldn't want to -- but why can't he?

He's totally evil, he's everything opposite to good, I think he doesn't want to, just like God doesn't want to sin. Jesus was capable to do it, otherwise he wouldn't tempt Him, but He didn't want to.

 

[TLK Valentine]

There is a text that He will reconcile all things to Himself, but I was taught that He only died for humans.

And have you ever questioned that teaching?

He's totally evil, he's everything opposite to good,

Kind of makes you wonder what God was thinking when He created him?

I think he doesn't want to,

There's a big difference between "doesn't want to," and "isn't able to..."

just like God doesn't want to sin.

"sin" is the one thing that God, by definition, cannot do. To "sin" is to disobey or go against God's wishes, and how can God disobey Himself?

Jesus was capable to do it, otherwise he wouldn't tempt Him, but He didn't want to.

Again, big difference between "can't" and "don't want to..."

Jesus was fully human; not just God in a clever human disguise... at any point, Jesus could've chosen to abandon the whole redemption plan and lived as a normal human -- Martin Scorsese' controversial film The Last Temptation of Christ explores that very "what if?" scenario.

That's what being human is all about... free will.

 

[Messy]

And have you ever questioned that teaching?

Kind of makes you wonder what God was thinking when He created him?

I read about universalism, for people it could be possible, but I don't care if the devil gets saved.
He didn't create him. That would make Him evil.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I read about universalism, for people it could be possible, but I don't care if the devil gets saved.

With all due respect, I didn't ask what you cared about...

He didn't create him. That would make Him evil.

Then where did the devil come from?

 

[Messy]

With all due respect, I didn't ask what you cared about...



Then where did the devil come from?

Lol I mean that's the reason I didn't question it.
He was a perfect angel that got proud and wanted to be higher than God.

 

[TLK Valentine]

He was a perfect angel that got proud and wanted to be higher than God.

Doesn't sound all that perfect after all...

 

[GoldenBoy89]

He was a perfect angel that got proud and wanted to be higher than God.

Why?

Why would he want to be "higher than God?"

If he was prefect, how much more perfect-er did he think he could get?

If things were perfect in heaven, why would he want to change that? Where would he even get the idea to disobey?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Yes but it doesn't say He created it like that. GAP-ers say the original text says it became void and dark.

It says in the beginning it was that way, not that it became that way.

If that's how it was in the beginning, then it was created that way.

 

[Dave Ellis]

He was murdered by sin itself through the act of sinful men. God accomplishing the requirement of righteousness in a sinless human form of Himself is the mystery of godliness.

But he didn't sin, therefore he should be immune to death. The acts of sinners should have no effect on him.

 

[Messy]

Why?

Why would he want to be "higher than God?"

If he was prefect, how much more perfect-er did he think he could get?

If things were perfect in heaven, why would he want to change that? Where would he even get the idea to disobey?

You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;


15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;

Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor

 

[Messy]

It says in the beginning it was that way, not that it became that way.

If that's how it was in the beginning, then it was created that way.

A man that studied Hebrew translated it like this, that's what GAP-theory says also:
Weekly Torah Readings: B?reshite | One New Man Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2. And the earth was totally empty, devoid of all life, (Jer. 4:23) both animal and plant; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God hovered, brooded, over the face of the waters.

 

[Messy]

But he didn't sin, therefore he should be immune to death. The acts of sinners should have no effect on him.

He Himself didn't die, His Spirit didn't die, only His body, He had a mortal body like all other people, that was able to sin, not a glorified body that couldn't die.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Eh, you clearly don't know what "jealous" means. First, God is jealous because He knows He made you therefore it is right that you should receive and reciprocate His love.

Why is that? You are not ethically bound to reciprocate love to anyone regardless of if they made you or not. If your parents abused you as a child, you're fully ethically justified in shutting them out of your life now, even if they still love you.

How is that any indication of pride when you yourself also desire the same from the woman of your dreams?

I don't demand worship from the woman of my dreams. In fact I'd have no interest in even dating a woman who didn't consider herself my equal.

Second, God is jealous because He wants the best for you and wants you to receive everything you need from Him only because no one else can give like He does. How is that any indication of pride? Do you not have the same desire towards the woman you truly love?

Jealousy denotes personal insecurity. If your goal is to provide the best for everyone, jealousy is not a rational emotional response. Besides, what ultimate moral authority gets jealous?

And while I happen to be single now, whenever I've had past relationships I don't tend to feel jealous. I have enough trust in the girl I'm dating to not do anything inappropriate in regards to our relationship, and if I didn't have that trust in her, I wouldn't be dating her.

I find it rather insulting that you guys keep using the word "demand" in terms of worshipping and sacrificing. God merely issues a directive to those who are willing to follow Him to experience His goodness, it is a directive for those already willing (i.e.. Israel in the OT) to worship Him as God. Those laws in the OT were not enforced on any other heathen nations around OT Israel, so how did God "demand" anyone to worship Him?

You do know what commandments are, right? Do the commandments not apply to you?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Ask yourself this: Were the above directives given to people who already want to follow God, or those who were God-deniers?

God does not demand or force like you falsely insist, His commands were given to His people - those already willing to accept and worship Him as God.

And what happens to people who choose to not follow your god?

 

[Dave Ellis]

No He never sinned, He just took our sins in His body and was 'made sin', but He Himself wasn't made sinful.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Dave Ellis]

That is a flawed conclusion. God issued a clear directive in the beginning what the forbidden fruit does, so Adam and Eve could not have been totally ignorant of the consequences. In fact, if God wanted them to fall, He would not have given such a clear directive about that fruit. Clearly, His intention was not for them to fall, but He was aware of the possibility and prepared beforehand a salvation.

He did not play a direct role in the fall like you falsely claim. I do believe God has every power to give mankind knowledge of good and evil without the need of mankind's fall. The fall was a direct cause of satan's deception and the unbelief of mankind.

The problem is that contradicts your earlier statement that he wanted Adam and Eve to learn the difference between good and evil.

If that was indeed his plan, then they had to eat the fruit, which would have lead to the fall.

 

[Dave Ellis]

If there was no devil it would be easier I think, but since he's there the only thing you have to obey is: keep away from him and sin.
It's like a parent that tells a kid not to take candy from a stranger and just obey. If you know the parent obeying isn't that hard. Some weirdo's tried to teach a kid this that was too innocent and kidnapped him. There is no other way with someone who's innocent and not innocent means that you sinned.

Does god not have power over the devil?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Because the story they're trying to sell wouldn't make any sense.

It already doesn't make any sense

 

[Dave Ellis]

Because even the devil serves a purpose in teaching us what evil is and what it does? He is the very epitome of the extent sin can corrupt a created being and how ugly sin can make him become.

So god couldn't come up with a better way of imparting that knowledge onto us?

And if the devil serves a purpose, does that mean he is part of god's plan?