Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Messy]

So in essence you're arguing that god created the good type of evil?

What is a good type of evil?
I believe everything was Light, good because He is Light and in the end there is no sun needed, so the darkness came when satan fell and the earth was void and empty and darkness, which also means wickedness was on the face of the deep. Then He said: Let there be Light.

 

[Dave Ellis]

God is perfect and humble, His humbleness is exemplified in the Person of Jesus Christ. Where did you get the notion that God is proud?

Since when is a self described jealous god who demands your worship and sacrifice considered humble?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Really? He doesn't demand worship? So there is no punishment (e.g., hell) for not worshipping him?

Eh, how many times do I need to repeat myself? Punishment is meted out for sin. There is no direct link between sin and lack of worship, stop equating the two please.

He knew exactly how Satan would behave given the freedom to do so.

So?

And your view is unbiased?

I don't try to paint a picture of something that does not represent what it really is. You do, because you do not even have full knowledge of the scenario you are trying to depict. Do you know God's purpose for His design? No, yet you attempt to describe His design as though you understand His purpose.

 

[Dave Ellis]

It is what it says. Death in the Bible mostly refers to spiritual death, or it can refer to both physical and spiritual death. Every Bible scholar will agree that there are two kinds of death (physical and spiritual) mentioned in the Bible, and both are simply called "death".

The concept of "spiritual death" does not appear anywhere in the bible. The notion only arose in fairly modern theology as a way to explain away things that don't make sense in scripture.

No question that a lot of Christians buy into the idea, but don't go saying it's a biblically based one.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Eh, how many times do I need to repeat myself? Punishment is meted out for sin. There is no direct link between sin and lack of worship, stop equating the two please.

Isn't lack of worship a sin?

So?

So what I said earlier applies. He unleashed the dragon knowing what it would do. Worse than that, he created the dragon knowing what it would do.

I don't try to paint a picture of something that does not represent what it really is. You do, because you do not even have full knowledge of the scenario you are trying to depict. Do you know God's purpose for His design? No, yet you attempt to describe His design as though you understand His purpose.

And you know his purpose? If not, you are just as guilty of conjecture as I.

 

[Dave Ellis]

No of course not. Jesus is God, He was sinless, innocent, He got killed. He came to show who the Father is. If He wasn't sinless, we couldn't be saved.

So if the root cause of death is sin, and Jesus didn't sin.... then how did Jesus die?

 

[Messy]

Since when is a self described jealous god who demands your worship and sacrifice considered humble?

Since He doesn't demand worship, otherwise He wouldn't even have given us a will and He didn't demand Adam and Eve to worship Him and jealous is only bad when it's sinful. Am I bad when I'm jealous of a cheating spouse? I think if you couldn't care less about it that it's bad.

 

[Messy]

So if the root cause of death is sin, and Jesus didn't sin.... then how did Jesus die?

He was made sin for us, He took our sins in His body and the devil inspired them to kill Him.

 

[Dave Ellis]

What is a good type of evil?
I believe everything was Light, good because He is Light and in the end there is no sun needed, so the darkness came when satan fell and the earth was void and empty and darkness, which also means wickedness was on the face of the deep. Then He said: Let there be Light.

How do you justify that? Your own holy book says in the beginning the world was void and dark.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I addressed that.

If god intended for mankind to become knowledgeable about good and evil, then his design was indeed perfect.

However, since the knowledge of good and evil lead to the fall of man, then the fall of man must also be an intentional part of god's design.

I do not know about the bolded part, but there is no evidence to suggest that as fact. In fact, it hints at God wanting mankind to sin, which is wholly impossible and contradictory to what God intends in His Gospel message. What if God also had in mind other ways for mankind to know about good and evil even if Adam and Eve did not choose to sin? Clearly with God that is also possible. You are merely making a guess, nothing more nothing less. I am strongly inclined to disagree with the bolded part solely based on how it contradicts the Gospel.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Eh, how many times do I need to repeat myself? Punishment is meted out for sin. There is no direct link between sin and lack of worship, stop equating the two please.

"I am the lord thy god, thou shalt have no other gods before me"

"Keep the Sabbath day holy".


Those sound like directives to you about who your god is and how to worship.... Are you saying it's not sinful to break those commandments?

 

[Dave Ellis]

He was made sin for us, He took our sins in His body and the devil inspired them to kill Him.

So he was sinful in the end?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Therefore I believe God allows suffering to good people not because of sin, but because He wants us to focus on knowing Him and His will. Knowing Him is the most important thing for anyone.

Is there no way of knowing him apart from suffering? What sort of sadist would design a system in which the only way to know them and form a relationship with them is to be subjected to all manner of cruelties?

If we were all living in luxury and comfort, will we keep God in our thoughts? Probably not, but suffering keeps us aware of how vulnerable we are, it keeps us humble and reliant on God for providence. Moreover, it trains our character and faith.

Is there no other way to train character? Does all suffering train character?

The authenticity of our relationship with anyone (including God) shows only in suffering, because in prosperity, people become proud and superficial. If we truly love God, we will not abandon Him when we suffer (just like Job did not deny God in his suffering). This can be applied even to friendships and kinship, as those who abandon you in your suffering were never your friends or kinsmen.

Doesn't this apply to God also? He abandoned Job to the cruelties of Satan whom he allowed to torment him, so I guess he was never his friend to begin with.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I do not know about the bolded part, but there is no evidence to suggest that as fact. In fact, it hints at God wanting mankind to sin, which is wholly impossible and contradictory to what God intends in His Gospel message. What if God also had in mind other ways for mankind to know about good and evil even if Adam and Eve did not choose to sin? Clearly with God that is also possible. You are merely making a guess, nothing more nothing less. I am strongly inclined to disagree with the bolded part solely based on how it contradicts the Gospel.

It's an inescapable conclusion, the fall of man is a direct consequence of adam and eve learning about good and evil, and God must have known that since he laid out the punishment.

If he wanted them to know good and evil, then it necessarily follows that he must have intended for the world to fall as it did. He played a direct role in it.

 

[Messy]

How do you justify that? Your own holy book says in the beginning the world was void and dark.

Yes but it doesn't say He created it like that. GAP-ers say the original text says it became void and dark.

 

[WoundedDeep]

So if the root cause of death is sin, and Jesus didn't sin.... then how did Jesus die?

He was murdered by sin itself through the act of sinful men. God accomplishing the requirement of righteousness in a sinless human form of Himself is the mystery of godliness.

 

[mkrist]

I do agree that suffering keeps us humble and reliant on God and that prosperity can lead to pride. I'm not questioning the purpose or good that can come from suffering when it produces a deeper faith or helps us see the needs of others and teaches us compassion or perseverance. What I have trouble with is why does God withdraw in our darkest hours - like I mentioned with my friend who was dying and in my own life. I'v had times of depression and despair when I literally cried out to God - not to take away my difficulties, but to just give me His comfort - an awareness that He was there, by my side. And I often wonder about Job. Would he still have faith if he knew his whole ordeal was really a wager between God and Satan? And then when He asks God for an explanation, it seems God gets irritated by his questioning. It's not like Job just lost his position in society or his wealth. When those things were taken, he accepted it - God gives and He takes away. It wasn't until he lost his family that he fell into an ash heap and really began to mourn and despair and it only got worse the more he sought after God. Doesn't God promise that those who earnestly seek Him will find Him? It just seems that promises like this that God makes in His Word, aren't always kept by Him. How can I count on any of His promises if He doesn't consistently keep them?

 

[Messy]

Is there no way of knowing him apart from suffering? What sort of sadist would design a system in which the only way to know them and form a relationship with them is to be subjected to all manner of cruelties?

Yes, obeying, but they didn't do that. They should have eaten from the tree of Life instead. This is eternal Life that they might know You. The cross is the tree of Life now.
If God tells me to not do a specific sin I can do that and obey and instead take the time to get to know Him or I can sin and afterwards find out why He told me that, say sorry and it's done away at the cross and I suffered a lot needlessly and others too unfortunately.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Since when is a self described jealous god who demands your worship and sacrifice considered humble?

Eh, you clearly don't know what "jealous" means. First, God is jealous because He knows He made you therefore it is right that you should receive and reciprocate His love. How is that any indication of pride when you yourself also desire the same from the woman of your dreams? Second, God is jealous because He wants the best for you and wants you to receive everything you need from Him only because no one else can give like He does. How is that any indication of pride? Do you not have the same desire towards the woman you truly love?

I find it rather insulting that you guys keep using the word "demand" in terms of worshipping and sacrificing. God merely issues a directive to those who are willing to follow Him to experience His goodness, it is a directive for those already willing (i.e.. Israel in the OT) to worship Him as God. Those laws in the OT were not enforced on any other heathen nations around OT Israel, so how did God "demand" anyone to worship Him?

 

[WoundedDeep]

"I am the lord thy god, thou shalt have no other gods before me"

"Keep the Sabbath day holy".


Those sound like directives to you about who your god is and how to worship.... Are you saying it's not sinful to break those commandments?

Ask yourself this: Were the above directives given to people who already want to follow God, or those who were God-deniers?

God does not demand or force like you falsely insist, His commands were given to His people - those already willing to accept and worship Him as God.