Why worship?

[Steeno7]

Which again seems semantically tortuous. "Worshipping something is the act of acknowledging its maximal worth/value" - well, do we know that God is maximally worthy/valuable? You say it's because he's our creator and sustainer, but why does that make him maximally worthy/valuable?

Yes, I know He is. I know that if not for His creating me I would have never existed. I know that if not for His continuing to sustain me I would not continue to exist. I also know that the reason He created me and continues to sustain me is because He is Love. I was created out of His love, and I am sustained out of His love for me.

But, what truly solidifies His worth for me, is the sending of His own Son to die on a cross for me. He created me, He sustains me, and He even provides the way for me to continue in an eternal love relationship with Him...even though I deserve anything but that. I will spend eternity praising and worshiping Him, for He alone is God, and He alone is indeed worthy of being worshiped.

 

[lesliedellow]

It is impossible to convey to an atheist the sense of religious awe which lies behind worship, for the same reason that I couldn't convey to somebody born blind what it means to experience the colour red.

Communication depends upon either common experience (why you can't eat an unsweetened lemon) or a common understanding of abstract concepts (why the axiom of choice implies the continuum hypothesis).

 

[jmcorn]

OK. So why does that make him worthy of our worship?

We all worship something. It is a choice to worship our creator. I know you believe in God or you wouldn't be asking these questions. So what do you worship? What are you living your life for? What are you gonna do at the end of your life?

 

[Lukaris]

So here you're saying that non-believers have the natural capacity to do and know right from wrong. Great. But later on you contradict yourself...


And here's the contradiction. First you say non-believers have the natural capacity to know right from wrong, but now you're saying that we need to worship God (i.e., be a believer) if we are to do what is right.

So... which is it? Is the capacity to know right from wrong only held by worshippers, or is it a natural capacity held by all people?


In Isaiah 45:7, God says differently.

The natural capacity exists within the human conscience given by God which is explained by St. Paul in Romans 2. What is considered proper conduct is not committing murder, adultery, stealing etc as outlined by St. Paul in Romans 13: 8-10, the same commands the Lord told the rich young man in Matthew 19: 16-26, the same conduct outlined in Psalm 15 etc.

The thing is while an individual may be saved by the Lord's approval of good conduct (John 5:22-29) without the Gospel, a person dies in uncertainty. Collectively, " all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) so God will judge. It is by the cross & our repentance that as Christians we are justified by the grace of God (Romans 3:24-25). This is our life commitment we are warned about willfully sinning after receiving the gift of grace (Hebrews 10:26-39) & why confession of sin while we live is needed 1st letter of John 1:5-10.

As far as Isaiah 45:7, the Lord calls us to righteousness & salvation in Isaiah 45:8 since he created that very salvation. So if we choose evil then I guess we still bring evil upon ourselves.

 

[Water Cross]

Simple question - why should I worship God?

Answer that as a Wiccan. God doesn't need us to worship him. It's more for us than for him.

 

[jmcorn]

Matthew 4:10 ESV

Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"

That is a good reason.

 

[aiki]

Why do you need to worship God? Because doing so achieves the fundamental purpose for which you were made. God made you to glorify Him. As you can imagine, living in accord with the fundamental purpose for which you were created brings you into the most fulfilling life possible.

Selah.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yes, I know He is. I know that if not for His creating me I would have never existed. I know that if not for His continuing to sustain me I would not continue to exist. I also know that the reason He created me and continues to sustain me is because He is Love. I was created out of His love, and I am sustained out of His love for me.

But, what truly solidifies His worth for me, is the sending of His own Son to die on a cross for me. He created me, He sustains me, and He even provides the way for me to continue in an eternal love relationship with Him...even though I deserve anything but that. I will spend eternity praising and worshiping Him, for He alone is God, and He alone is indeed worthy of being worshiped.

None of that seems to be a compelling reason to praise him, though. He created you, sustains you, and provided a way for you to live forever. At best that warrants your gratitude.

But suppose this was all done by a human. A mortal creature who created you, whose continual actions sustain you, and whose work has provided you with eternal life. Would you worship this human? Would you build grand churches, sing its name, collapse in reverence? Probably not. You'd be grateful, sure, but you wouldn't worship it.

So I'm not convinced those actions warrant worship (worship in the sense of building temples, singing and praising its name, etc).

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It is impossible to convey to an atheist the sense of religious awe which lies behind worship, for the same reason that I couldn't convey to somebody born blind what it means to experience the colour red.

Communication depends upon either common experience (why you can't eat an unsweetened lemon) or a common understanding of abstract concepts (why the axiom of choice implies the continuum hypothesis).

Who's to say atheists don't have the same emotional response that theists do? Who's to say that the awe you feel via worship isn't felt by atheists via something else? I am awed, dumbstruck, floored, by the grandeur of space and the things we image through telescopes. When I first saw the Pale Blue Dot, and heard Sagan's narration, I was moved to tears. Music, art, and film, too, move me in ways I never thought possible.

So I don't agree that atheists can't understand religious awe, at least not in principle - as you imply, there may actually be a point of common experience.

 

[Steeno7]

None of that seems to be a compelling reason to praise him, though. He created you, sustains you, and provided a way for you to live forever. At best that warrants your gratitude.

But suppose this was all done by a human. A mortal creature who created you, whose continual actions sustain you, and whose work has provided you with eternal life. Would you worship this human? Would you build grand churches, sing its name, collapse in reverence? Probably not. You'd be grateful, sure, but you wouldn't worship it.

So I'm not convinced those actions warrant worship (worship in the sense of building temples, singing and praising its name, etc).

A "mortal" creature who creates "eternal" life? You need to think that through a little more. A Creature that can create life out of nothing and sustain that life eternally could not be mortal itself.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The natural capacity exists within the human conscience given by God which is explained by St. Paul in Romans 2. What is considered proper conduct is not committing murder, adultery, stealing etc as outlined by St. Paul in Romans 13: 8-10, the same commands the Lord told the rich young man in Matthew 19: 16-26, the same conduct outlined in Psalm 15 etc.

The thing is while an individual may be saved by the Lord's approval of good conduct (John 5:22-29) without the Gospel, a person dies in uncertainty. Collectively, " all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) so God will judge. It is by the cross & our repentance that as Christians we are justified by the grace of God (Romans 3:24-25). This is our life commitment we are warned about willfully sinning after receiving the gift of grace (Hebrews 10:26-39) & why confession of sin while we live is needed 1st letter of John 1:5-10.

As far as Isaiah 45:7, the Lord calls us to righteousness & salvation in Isaiah 45:8 since he created that very salvation. So if we choose evil then I guess we still bring evil upon ourselves.

So we are judged on our morality, not on our religion.

Both non-Christians and Christians who do evil will be judged accordingly - the former because they ignored their God-given natural capacity to know right from wrong, the latter because they have wilfully sinned after received grace.

Both non-Christians and Christians who do good will be judged accordingly - the former did right because they acted in accordance with their capacity to know right from wrong, and the latter did right because they have received grace and stopped wilfully sinning.

In all four cases, a person is judged on their actions and morality. Which is a much better afterlife system than what most Christians tout.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

We all worship something.

I do not. I don't see the point. Hence, my question.

It is a choice to worship our creator.

OK. Why did you make that choice? How do you do 'worship' (as there seems to be disagreement on just what it is)?

I know you believe in God or you wouldn't be asking these questions.

It might be wise in future to instead ask someone their motivation, instead of showing such arrogance as to presume you know them. I am asking this question because I do not understand why one would worship God. I do not believe in God, of course, but even if I did, I cannot see why that would compel me to worship.

People thus far have listed various actions that God has done, and said "That is why we worship". This is unconvincing. If I believed God had done the things he is alleged to have done, I would be grateful, thankful. But I wouldn't fall to my knees, hands clasped in fervent supplication, praising God's name or prostrating myself a humble sinner. I don't see the point - if nothing else, I have better things to do with my time.

So my question to those who do do that, is why do that.

So what do you worship? What are you living your life for? What are you gonna do at the end of your life?

What do I worship? Nothing. As I said, I don't see the point.

What am I living my life for? Ostensibly, myself and my loved ones, and through my research I act to embetter mankind (I work in nuclear physics with medical applications).

What am I going to do at the end of my life? Die. I can hope my final acts will be of painless and peaceful reflection of a life well spent, surrounded by loved ones, but this is largely out of my hands.

What would your answers be to the same questions?
What do you worship?
What are you living for?
What are you going to do at the end of your life?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Answer that as a Wiccan.

Hmm. A Wiccan would say they revere or worship nature or the pagan gods, out of a sense of adoration, an incommunicable desire to be part of something they sense is 'more' - a tree isn't a tree, it is the tip of an incomprehensibly vast web of life and growth and knowledge and history. Wiccans worship, therefore, to be a part of that, to experience it, to learn from it, etc.

So this would be a valid answer to the OP, I feel. If Christians worshipped God to be closer to him, to understand his actions or his creation better, to learn their purpose, to acquire practical knowledge like medicine or foreknowledge of natural disasters, etc. It has problems Wicca does not - the 'web' doesn't care if you come to it or not, but Christianity posits that God actively seeks us. In Wicca, if you don't go to nature, that's your business. In Christianity, it's hard to explain why God would only reveal things to those who come to him.

Nevertheless, it would be a start.

God doesn't need us to worship him. It's more for us than for him.

OK. So what does it do for us? If there is practical utility, then that would certainly be a good reason to worship.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

A "mortal" creature who creates "eternal" life? You need to think that through a little more. A Creature that can create life out of nothing and sustain that life eternally could not be mortal itself.

I'm well aware. The creature was a mortal flesh-and-blood human, once, but whether through magic or technology, was able to create new life, and to create life everlasting. It certainly wouldn't be mortal any longer, but that's just semantics, and the question stands unchanged: would you worship this being, your creator, sustainer, and eternal-life-giver, if it was a mere human and not God?

 

[Steeno7]

I'm well aware. The creature was a mortal flesh-and-blood human, once, but whether through magic or technology, was able to create new life, and to create life everlasting. It certainly wouldn't be mortal any longer, but that's just semantics, and the question stands unchanged: would you worship this being, your creator, sustainer, and eternal-life-giver, if it was a mere human and not God?

If the Being was my Creator, Sustainer, and eternal-life-Giver, the Being would be God.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

If the Being was my Creator, Sustainer, and eternal-life-Giver, the Being would be God.

Even if that being was once a flesh-and-blood human, born by mundane means to mundane people, who achieved his status by technology and science? Even if the being didn't create the universe, answer prayers, etc?

 

[Steeno7]

Even if that being was once a flesh-and-blood human, born by mundane means to mundane people, who achieved his status by technology and science? Even if the being didn't create the universe, answer prayers, etc?

Thats called science fiction, which I like very much actually. Nonetheless, a Being that intrinsically has all of the attributes of God, would be God.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Thats called science fiction, which I like very much actually. Nonetheless, a Being that intrinsically has all of the attributes of God, would be God.

Sure, but this being doesn't have all the attributes of God. It is not, for instance, omniscient or omnipotence, it didn't create the universe, it needn't be good, merciful, loving or just, it was born a mortal and became immortal through technology, it is entirely part of space and time (unlike God, who is transcendent)... all it did, was create you, sustain you, and offer you eternal life. Are those three properties, and those three properties alone, sufficient to cause you to worship that being?

 

[Steeno7]

Sure, but this being doesn't have all the attributes of God. It is not, for instance, omniscient or omnipotence, it didn't create the universe, it needn't be good, merciful, loving or just, it was born a mortal and became immortal through technology, it is entirely part of space and time (unlike God, who is transcendent)... all it did, was create you, sustain you, and offer you eternal life. Are those three properties, and those three properties alone, sufficient to cause you to worship that being?

How did "it" create me? What you really mean is "it" assembled me from what had already been created.

 

[OliverC]

Simple question - why should I worship God?

Hi Wiccan
My perspective is that we are told that God is spirit (John 4:24) and man has spirit (Job 32:8). Worship is an action with a focus on that spirit. It is spirit and an innate perception of it which leads to joy and peace (Romans 8:6). It is a sense of joy and peace which does not depend on materialism (which is subject to always come to an end i.e. death and decay).

Spirit is eternal and one who knows the spirit has eternal life i.e escapes physical death. (John 6:63).

Logically, the spirit can be known outside of worship, but worship has spirit as its means and goal.