repentant said:
Well with all these people bringing up the Sabbath and obeying the 4th Commandment, it seems like they say that by worshipping on Sunday we break this Commandment. But obviously they also think they know everyone's daily life, and make assumptions about people that they have no clue about. This breaks a Commandment as well.."Bearing false witness against thy neighbor". They assume that just because we worship and go to Church on Sunday, they assume we don't observe the Sabbath. I personally do not work on weekends. I have lately, but only because work it short of people, and when you work at a hospital you have no choice. Remember Jesus said it is ok to do good on the Sabbath...
I agree, which is why I pointed out that I have no problem with Sunday worship. The problem is not Sunday worship, the problem is neglect of a command of God. And for me it is not a judgment issue. I just like to talk out various teachings to learn, and to have others learn. And I have learned a number of things about no only the Sabbath but ECF, councils, biblical translation, hermeneutics of various churches, and many more topics in my short stay in GT.
But back to the point. God when establishing the Commandment said to rest. So if I or any Sunday Church going Christian rest on Saturday by not working, who are you to say we are doing otherwise? Again people are making false assumptions about other's. Notice how the only people that start these threads are Sabbath observer's or Adventists?
A. not true, though mostly true. I have seen some started by others.
B. Everyone starts threads on their favorite or "strong" topics. It is the nature of GT. I have seen a number of
"Mary is the ark of the New Covenant" threads, all started by Catholics.
Or "Apostolic Succession" usually started by those churches who claim it.
The point is that everyone has issues that are important to them and they want to get them out there
Now I personally think that it is good to post on a number of threads. But not everyone does. Some may not feel qualified to speak on a number of issues.
They start them to condemn Sunday Church going Christians. Does this sound Christ like to you? Judging other's, and bearing false witness? It does to me. You (well not particularlly you) make assumptions about other's, when in reality you have no idea what people do on Saturday or any other day. I myself stay home and read on Saturday's, and attend Saturday Vesper's. Did you know that the EOC has a Church service on Saturday?
Most Adventists or Sabbath keepers do not start them to condemn non-Sabbath keepers. They do it to warn the world about what they think is a major end-time issue, or because they simply want to please God by doing what He asked.
I do think that some feel condemned. And like any group we do have some who are less than diplomatic. But honestly, I feel condemned sometimes if other groups point out something I am not doing--and with good reason! Should I feel bad because I am condemned, or should I examine it to see if it is legitimate? If it is not, then I don't feel condemned. If it is, then it is conviction, and I should address it. And I have found this at times. For instance, the Orthodox have a great emphasis on spiritual disciplines such as fasting. Adventists do fast, but we do not stress it as much. In fact, many Adventists probably never fast. Now as a pastor, if I have not presented the purpose of fasting enough, should I feel bad? Yes. I should! So it is a reminder. Now are you condemning me by speaking of fasting? No. But I might condemn myself if I don't pursue it enough. I am under conviction, which is a good thing if it leads to repentance and leaves no regret, as Paul said. So it is a good reminder.
In the same way some people may not even be aware of the Sabbath command, or have heard of it but never looked into it. Is it wrong to present this? They lose nothing by investigating it. And some have in fact come to keep the Sabbath.
You mentioned the Orthodox practice. Yes, I am aware of the Sabbath services of the Orthodox. In fact in nearly every Sabbath thread we are reminded of it. And yet I find that in nearly every Sabbath thread the Orthodox are the most willing to oppose any Sabbath teaching. Why? If you are keeping it then why feel self-condemned?
Now that does not mean you cannot comment. Feel free. But if you say all these things were made to condemn, I don't think it is true. And if you feel condemned, you might ask yourself why.
I have no problem with someone who rests on Sabbath, spending time in reflection, and then worships on Sunday. I know of a number of ministers and lay peopl who started doing this from their own study, still maintaining Sunday worship, but adding Sabbath observance. I think it is great. There is nothing wrong with giving God more time.
But there are those who by their theological statements (The Catholic Church being the most prominent) who have taken the stand that Sabbath WAS replaced with Sunday, and that the moral force of the Sabbath commandment applies to Sunday. The Pope John Paull II's letter on the subject made that very clear, as have other documents. And since that is the case, it is something that some people should realize that the two are different days, have different purposes, and should not be conflated.
So if we argue along those lines, does it effect you? I don't see how it would.
Anyway, that is why I hate these type of threads because A) Sabbath keepers are judging other's, and B) They condemn anyone who worships on Sunday without knowing the person, like knowing them would matter anyway. I make everyday Holy to the Lord not just one or two days out of the week. I think He deserves more than one day.
Not all do. And it is really not unique to these threads. The Sola Scriptura threads, Mary threads, tongues threads, etc. all can take that tone , from any side.
We too are condemned often as legalists or Judaizers, etc. It is frequently pointed out that we have many heretical beliefs. We are told (like everyone else) that if we are not part of certain churches we are lost. It is just the way things go in this forum. But the challenge is to individually rise above that and look at issues objectively. That is not easy to do.
I am sorry I though you were an inquirer, but asking questions I guees you are.
In a sense I am
I enjoy learning about Orthodoxy, and other faiths. There are always some points that you stress that we don't. And that is good to note.
And if you want something closer to the Bible, I suggest you take a closer look at Orthodoxy. If you are not satisfied with "all things Adventist" I believe that should tell you something. I would dare to say that every EO Christian is satisfied with all that is Orthodxy. After all we should be. Jesus was the fullfillment of the Truth, and Orthodoxy keeps that Truth..
Honestly, if I found that to be the case for me I would. But so far I find more about your church that I cannot agree with than I do the Adventists. And while you might not appreciate me putting it quite this way, I don't think that you have the original orthodox faith. I think that the Greek fathers often times departed from the original faith as they distanced themselves from Judaism, throwing out more than needed to be.
Moreover, I find that individuals of your faith (who may not always be an accurate representation, I realize this), often will say something is apostolic only if the church fathers say it, even if it seems to go against the apostles themselves.
But I hope to get some books on the issue by a former Adventist that has been mentioned. Then I will be getting an approach that can relate to the Adventist mind-set.
And my disagreements with Adventists are usually about non-essentials. And at times just the way they present things. But I don't find it all that troubling that I don't agree in every respect. I dont' see the apostles, or the ECF etc. agreeing in every respect either on "disputable matters", so why stress it?