Why were the Disciples So Faithless?

[RDKirk]

I'm referring to John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back and walk no more with him."

You know that "his disciples" includes more than the 12 because the very next verse says "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"

If you're claiming now that you meant the disciples other than the 12, that's called "moving the goalpost."

 

[Smidlee]

You know that "his disciples" includes more than the 12 because the very next verse says "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"

If you're claiming now that you meant the disciples other than the 12, that's called "moving the goalpost."

I thought I made that clear in post 42.

 

[RDKirk]

I thought I made that clear in post 42.

"42" is the correct answer for everything, of course, but that was not your post.

Oh, wait, sorry, I got confused with who had posted what.

 

[Smidlee]

nm

 

[ViaCrucis]

I have been reading as much as I can. I see where the Pentacost was prophesied by Joel and spoken of by Peter during the event. Did Jesus ever clearly refer to this event other than through the founding of the church upon Peter? And was the coming of the holy spirit foretold or expected?

Pentecost is a Greek term meaning "Fifty", used as a translation of the Jewish Feast of Shavuot. Shavuot, the Feast of Weeks, took place fifty days after Passover. Shavuot is one of the three mandatory pilgrimage feasts in Judaism, the other two being Passover and Sukkot.

In the Acts of the Apostles the text in the first chapter begins roughly where the Gospel of Luke ended (the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles were written by the same person, traditionally believed to be St. Luke, a traveling companion of St. Paul the Apostle). Here after Jesus had been raised from the dead, but before He ascended into heaven, He instructs His disciples to remain in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit comes.

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." - Acts 1:8

The Greek word apostolos (apostle) means "one that is sent out". The purpose of this book, the Acts of the Apostles, is to tell the story of how Jesus sends His apostles out into the world to be preachers of His Gospel and kingdom. This verse, Acts 1:8, is kind of like a thesis statement, the entire book follows this pattern beginning in the events in Jerusalem, then throughout Judea and Samaria, and then to the outermost reaches of the civilized (Roman) world. Indeed the text ends rather abruptly with St. Paul under house arrest in Rome.

In Acts chapter 2 Jesus' promise of the Holy Spirit coming upon His disciples comes to pass, and with this comes a courage and authority to speak they had never been shown to have previously. Upon this happening Peter stands up and preaches a lengthy sermon, and according to the text upward of about 3,000 of the pilgrims in Jerusalem were baptized as Christians.

So, yes, that the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost and, thus, giving birth to the Church's call and mission toward the world is a universally held Christian belief: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[joshuanazar]

I find it interesting that Jesus only told two people that they had great faith; a roman and a syro-phenician woman. Neither was under the law, but his disciples were. Maybe that was why they were so unbelieving, because they knew that they deserved death when they saw the storm come for example. Maybe that is also why the gentiles welcomed the gospel more than the Jews did.

The disciples didn't gain courage until after they gained the Holy Spirit.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Given what I've read of this thread I doubt if this idea will find much support...by the way, are non-Christians allowed in this part of the forum? I did get an automated email telling me about this thread. Anyway...
If you think of the gospels as not being eyewitness accounts written as they were happening with 100% accuracy, but rather transcribings of oral tradition which had been circulating for decades then the answer is a lot clearer: the disciples had such weak faith because it made the story better.
It's more dramatic to have Jesus' followers waver in their faith then have it renewed; it makes a better story for Doubting Thomas to say "I won't believe you until Jesus comes here himself to tell me" then have Jesus go "Ta-daah!" It's a more powerful symbol to have Peter refuse to identify Jesus three times.

 

[1213]

This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. ...

Personally I think it is not necessary to believe that Jesus did all those things and resurrected. Jesus himself says in the Bible:

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

The point is to receive his sayings. It is not useful if you believe all the actions, but not receive what Jesus told. Even demons believe:

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:19

And I don’t think it is useful for them. Nor do I believe it is useful for any “Christian” to believe that God is real and all happened as the Bible tells, if they don’t receive what Jesus told.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
Matt. 7:21-23

You don’t have to believe this, but Jesus told in the Bible:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
ohn 6:63

Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.”
John. 8:51

I have understood that receiving words that Jesus taught means that you understand them and accept them. And it means for example that you understand this and want to live according to these, because you know it is good and right:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat. 22:37-39

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, just like I have loved you; that you also love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
John 13:34-35

Love is the thing that people should receive, it is the fulfillment of the Law and Bible even tells that God is love.

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16

If you remain in love and truth, I think you can be counted as righteous, even if you don’t believe that God is real and gives gift for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

It is not necessary to believe that you have eternal life, or that God gives gifts, it is necessary to be righteous to get eternal life. And righteousness is like right understanding and attitude that makes person live well and love as God has commanded.

I believe disciples of Jesus received what Jesus taught and were faithful to him, even when they didn’t strongly believe.

 

[Tree of Life]

This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. Why after all the miracles (calming a storm, walking on water, raising Lazurus, etc., etc) would have the disciples had any doubt of Jesus being the Son of God? Why would Peter have had all of his doubts? Jesus even told them of his impending death and that he would arise again after three days. Yet Peter denied Jesus three times before the crucifiction. And already knowing full well Jesus was undeniably exactly who he said he was. How could Judas have betrayed him for simple money and suffer the consequences he did? How could Thomas have doubted the resurrection to the extent he did? Why did the disciples even fear death after all they had witnessed? At that point there should have been no surprise. The surprise would have been if he did not resurrect. There have been innumerable displays of faith far greater than the disciples. Yet the disciples had the benefit of having all their doubts satisfied. There would have been no reason for them not to believe. I struggle with faith and always have. Why should I or anyone have to have faith without a reason after the disciples couldn't even believe what was right in front of them.

There are many different questions in here that each deserve their own thread. But to try to put the answer in a nutshell:

The disciples (like all of us) did not understand Jesus because Jesus did not fit their idea of who the Messiah was supposed to be. All of them had partial and mistaken images of the Christ in their minds and they were committed to their understanding of the world and of the Christ. Jesus defied these commitments and so baffled them.

For instance, the disciples expected the Christ to be a powerful, political savior for the Jewish nation. Crucifixion did not fit with this scheme so Peter could not understand Jesus' plain language. Every time Jesus taught that he must be crucified and raised again Peter though he must be speaking metaphorically. (Also keep in mind that the resurrection was a huge surprise. No one in Israel really expected this or had any hope in it. Death is death, people don't return from it. So the resurrection was a joyous surprise. It taught them that true salvation is not salvation from Rome or any other political power - but salvation from death itself.)

When Judas figured out that Jesus wasn't going to be the political hero that he was committed to he decided to betray him.

Etc...

 

[Givemeareason]

There are many different questions in here that each deserve their own thread. But to try to put the answer in a nutshell:

The disciples (like all of us) did not understand Jesus because Jesus did not fit their idea of who the Messiah was supposed to be. All of them had partial and mistaken images of the Christ in their minds and they were committed to their understanding of the world and of the Christ. Jesus defied these commitments and so baffled them.

For instance, the disciples expected the Christ to be a powerful, political savior for the Jewish nation. Crucifixion did not fit with this scheme so Peter could not understand Jesus' plain language. Every time Jesus taught that he must be crucified and raised again Peter though he must be speaking metaphorically. (Also keep in mind that the resurrection was a huge surprise. No one in Israel really expected this or had any hope in it. Death is death, people don't return from it. So the resurrection was a joyous surprise. It taught them that true salvation is not salvation from Rome or any other political power - but salvation from death itself.)

When Judas figured out that Jesus wasn't going to be the political hero that he was committed to he decided to betray him.

Etc...

Jesus clearly told them he was the messiah and the son of God and went on to prove it over and over. He then told them he would die and rise again in three days. I don't see where they had any excuses especially when Judas should have fully realized his consequences and Peter who loved Jesus so deeply should have had absolute faith at that time. The crucifiction and resurrection were both expected. Why would there have been any doubt or traitorous behavior? I don't get it.

 

[Tree of Life]

Jesus clearly told them he was the messiah and the son of God and went on to prove it over and over. He then told them he would die and rise again in three days. I don't see where they had any excuses especially when Judas should have fully realized his consequences and Peter who loved Jesus so deeply should have had absolute faith at that time. The crucifiction and resurrection were both expected. Why would there have been any doubt or traitorous behavior? I don't get it.

Returning from death didn't (and still doesn't) fit the paradigm. No matter how many times someone says it it still won't be accepted. Until, of course, it happens.

 

[Davian]

This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. Why after all the miracles (calming a storm, walking on water, raising Lazurus, etc., etc) would have the disciples had any doubt of Jesus being the Son of God? Why would Peter have had all of his doubts? Jesus even told them of his impending death and that he would arise again after three days. Yet Peter denied Jesus three times before the crucifiction. And already knowing full well Jesus was undeniably exactly who he said he was. How could Judas have betrayed him for simple money and suffer the consequences he did? How could Thomas have doubted the resurrection to the extent he did? Why did the disciples even fear death after all they had witnessed? At that point there should have been no surprise. The surprise would have been if he did not resurrect. There have been innumerable displays of faith far greater than the disciples. Yet the disciples had the benefit of having all their doubts satisfied. There would have been no reason for them not to believe. I struggle with faith and always have. Why should I or anyone have to have faith without a reason after the disciples couldn't even believe what was right in front of them.

I would hypothesize that this text has no actual basis in reality, and was written for individuals such as yourself, those in the process of questioning their faith, perhaps due to the inability to reconcile the bible stories with observations of reality. Building on the experience of previous religions, anticipating the absence of direct evidence for the god character in the bible and related claims, the bible writers wrote stories for the purpose of preaching and appealing to the masses.

It is the far more parsimonious explanation.

 

[bhsmte]

Because that's not the way they'd been taught the Messiah would take rule, and what Jesus was saying was foolishness--they were still reasoning by the wisdom of man, not with the mind of Christ.

It took His resurrection for them to see his plan come together.

What did they think Jesus represented then, given all the miracles they witnessed?

 

[Colter]

This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. Why after all the miracles (calming a storm, walking on water, raising Lazurus, etc., etc) would have the disciples had any doubt of Jesus being the Son of God? Why would Peter have had all of his doubts? Jesus even told them of his impending death and that he would arise again after three days. Yet Peter denied Jesus three times before the crucifiction. And already knowing full well Jesus was undeniably exactly who he said he was. How could Judas have betrayed him for simple money and suffer the consequences he did? How could Thomas have doubted the resurrection to the extent he did? Why did the disciples even fear death after all they had witnessed? At that point there should have been no surprise. The surprise would have been if he did not resurrect. There have been innumerable displays of faith far greater than the disciples. Yet the disciples had the benefit of having all their doubts satisfied. There would have been no reason for them not to believe. I struggle with faith and always have. Why should I or anyone have to have faith without a reason after the disciples couldn't even believe what was right in front of them.

True, the inherited religions of tradition are hard to break free from. Look at what became of Christianity and any notion that there was an original gospel of Jesus as oposed to Pauls new gospel of human sacrifice. Even today any variance or suggestion that there may be any errors in the Bible is met with the Satan tampering accusation. People have more faith in Satan then they do in Living truth.

I have often thought about how difficult it all was for the apostles to forsake everything in following Jesus who taught truths that were so much at odds with their cherished ideology, personal and national pride. Jesus referred to what converts would experience among family and friends "I have not come to bring peace but a sword." Jesus stretched their minds as far as he could away from fasts and forms, from a national God of tradition to a personal God.

 

[Givemeareason]

What did they think Jesus represented then, given all the miracles they witnessed?

Good question. I have heard there were a lot of tricksters running around. But walking on water and then having Peter get out of the boat and walk with him momentarily, I would think would have at least convinced Peter. Not to mention Jesus calming a storm. Yet Peter still denied him three times. And Peter was supposed to be the one who loved Jesus most. Doesn't say much for strength of character IMHO.

 

[bhsmte]

Good question. I have heard there were a lot of tricksters running around. But walking on water and then having Peter get out of the boat and walk with him momentarily, I would think would have at least convinced Peter. Not to mention Jesus calming a storm. Yet Peter still denied him three times. And Peter was supposed to be the one who loved Jesus most. Doesn't say much for strength of character IMHO.

Yep, you would think, they would have witnessed these things and went; wow, we have never seen anything like this before. Who is this Jesus?

 

[Givemeareason]

True, the inherited religions of tradition are hard to break free from. Look at what became of Christianity and any notion that there was an original gospel of Jesus as oposed to Pauls new gospel of human sacrifice. Even today any variance or suggestion that there may be any errors in the Bible is met with the Satan tampering accusation. People have more faith in Satan then they do in Living truth.

I have often thought about how difficult it all was for the apostles to forsake everything in following Jesus who taught truths that were so much at odds with their cherished ideology, personal and national pride. Jesus referred to what converts would experience among family and friends "I have not come to bring peace but a sword." Jesus stretched their minds as far as he could away from fasts and forms, from a national God of tradition to a personal God.

I have never managed to undertand why they followed him at all. They must not have had very cherished lives to begin with.

 

[Givemeareason]

Yep, you would think, they would have witnessed these things and went; wow, we have never seen anything like this before. Who is this Jesus?

Even today's magicians can't calm storms.

 

[Colter]

I have never managed to undertand why they followed him at all. They must not have had very cherished lives to begin with.

They followed him because they loved him. His original gospel was appealing. They would have never followed the freakish, wild eyed character depicted in Hollywood. Jesus was a mans man but Liberal.

 

[bhsmte]

Even today's magicians can't calm storms.

I have no idea what the magicians back then could do. But, today's magicians certainly couldn't do the things Jesus was claimed to have done.