Why were the Disciples So Faithless?

[Holoman]

Well their faith was pretty strong after the resurrection if you ask me. All but 2 of the 12 disciples was martyred for the faith. Is there any stronger declaration of faith than going willingly to ones death for what they believe in?

As to why they were so weak of faith in the face of miracles, well you see it all around you every day. Miracles happen, but they are just brushed off as 'coincidence' or just 'unexplained events'. Doubt is very powerful. Plus in their day, performing miracles didn't automatically make someone a son of God. The Old Testament is full of miracles but only one Messiah. The disciples would have had no doubt that miracles happened, by the act of God, but to claim someone as the son of God is pretty bold even in the face of that.

 

[brinny]

Why were the Disciples So Faithless?

This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. Why after all the miracles (calming a storm, walking on water, raising Lazurus, etc., etc) would have the disciples had any doubt of Jesus being the Son of God? Why would Peter have had all of his doubts? Jesus even told them of his impending death and that he would arise again after three days. Yet Peter denied Jesus three times before the crucifiction. And already knowing full well Jesus was undeniably exactly who he said he was. How could Judas have betrayed him for simple money and suffer the consequences he did? How could Thomas have doubted the resurrection to the extent he did? Why did the disciples even fear death after all they had witnessed? At that point there should have been no surprise. The surprise would have been if he did not resurrect. There have been innumerable displays of faith far greater than the disciples. Yet the disciples had the benefit of having all their doubts satisfied. There would have been no reason for them not to believe. I struggle with faith and always have. Why should I or anyone have to have faith without a reason after the disciples couldn't even believe what was right in front of them.

Was Jesus "faithless" in the Garden of Gethsemane when He sweat as it were, great drops of blood in his anguish, and as He asked Father God to take "this cup" from Him? Was He "faithless" on the cross when He cried out "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ~Matthew 27:46?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Givemeareason]

Why were the Disciples So Faithless?



Was Jesus "faithless" in the Garden of Gethsemane when He sweat as it were, great drops of blood in his anguish, and as He asked Father God to take "this cup" from Him? Was He "faithless" on the cross when He cried out "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ~Matthew 27:46?

Thank you kindly.

That was Jesus's anticipation of and the experience of great suffering. I don't see how that is relevant to faith. Anyone being crucified would have wanted to get it over with including Jesus.

 

[brinny]

That was Jesus's anticipation of and the experience of great suffering. I don't see how that is relevant to faith. Anyone being crucified would have wanted to get it over with including Jesus.

Interesting opinion. Would you care to elaborate on what you mean about Jesus' anticipation of great suffering? Is this why you believe Jesus was under such anguish that He sweat great drops of blood?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Givemeareason]

Interesting opinion. Would you care to elaborate on what you mean about Jesus' anticipation of great suffering? Is this why you believe Jesus was under such anguish that He sweat great drops of blood?

Thank you kindly.

He knew he had to carry out the sentence. He knew what to expect. And he was tempted to flee. I confess I don't know the significance of sweating blood except in a symbolic sense but I am certain his anticipation of one of the most gruesome drawn out deaths the Romans could think of would cause anxiety beyond belief. He was in human form.

 

[brinny]

He knew he had to carry out the sentence. He knew what to expect. And he was tempted to flee. I confess I don't know the significance of sweating blood except in a symbolic sense but I am certain his anticipation of one of the most gruesome drawn out deaths the Romans could think of would cause anxiety beyond belief. He was in human form.

If He was "tempted", as you say, He was wavering, and His "faith" would be brought into question. For wavering indicates "doubt", does it not?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Soyeong]

If He was "tempted", as you say, He was wavering, and His "faith" would be brought into question. For wavering indicates "doubt", does it not?

Thank you kindly.

That would depend on the reason why he was wavering. Was he wavering because he wanted to forgo excruciating humiliation and pain or because he doubted the Father?

Was He "faithless" on the cross when He cried out "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ~Matthew 27:46?

Jesus was quoting Psalms 22, which spoke prophetically about what was happening.

 

[Givemeareason]

If He was "tempted", as you say, He was wavering, and His "faith" would be brought into question. For wavering indicates "doubt", does it not?

Thank you kindly.

What faith? Faith is belief in the unseen as I understand it. Jesus was on a mission of certainty. He knew what he had to do.

 

[brinny]

What faith? Faith is belief in the unseen as I understand it. Jesus was on a mission of certainty. He knew what he had to do.

Why did He experience angst to such a degree, and cry out asking why He had been forsaken? Did He think God had forsaken Him?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Givemeareason]

Why did He experience angst to such a degree, and cry out asking why He had been forsaken? Did He think God had forsaken Him?

Thank you kindly.

I think it was just a plea to get it over with. His last words were that it is finished. The task had been completed. What do you think?

 

[brinny]

I think it was just a plea to get it over with. His last words were that it is finished. The task had been completed. What do you think?

Interesting thoughts and opinion.

Tell me again how completely "faithless" the disciples were?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Givemeareason]

Interesting thoughts and opinion.

Tell me again how completely "faithless" the disciples were?

Thank you kindly.

I would only be repeating myself. I would be more interested in your views.

 

[brinny]

I would only be repeating myself. I would be more interested in your views.

Ok, i'll delve in a little here.....did they sin when they "wavered" with their faith?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Givemeareason]

Ok, i'll delve in a little here.....did they sin when they "wavered" with their faith?

Thank you kindly.

No. What relevance is that?

 

[brinny]

brinny said:
Ok, i'll delve in a little here.....did they sin when they "wavered" with their faith?

Thank you kindly.

No. What relevance is that?

Were they still believers even if their faith wavered? Where does "faith" come from, and the "strength" of that faith? Is it "us" just being "strong" enough in "our" faith?

Was this man appropriate in what he said here:

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."" ~Mark 9:24

Thank you kindly.

 

[Steeno7]

This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. Why after all the miracles (calming a storm, walking on water, raising Lazurus, etc., etc) would have the disciples had any doubt of Jesus being the Son of God? Why would Peter have had all of his doubts? Jesus even told them of his impending death and that he would arise again after three days. Yet Peter denied Jesus three times before the crucifiction. And already knowing full well Jesus was undeniably exactly who he said he was. How could Judas have betrayed him for simple money and suffer the consequences he did? How could Thomas have doubted the resurrection to the extent he did? Why did the disciples even fear death after all they had witnessed? At that point there should have been no surprise. The surprise would have been if he did not resurrect. There have been innumerable displays of faith far greater than the disciples. Yet the disciples had the benefit of having all their doubts satisfied. There would have been no reason for them not to believe. I struggle with faith and always have. Why should I or anyone have to have faith without a reason after the disciples couldn't even believe what was right in front of them.

Did you miss Pentecost and the dramatic change that took place in them when the Spirit of God came to indwell and empower them???

 

[keith99]

Ok, i'll delve in a little here.....did they sin when they "wavered" with their faith?

Thank you kindly.

Which definition of sin?

I've heard it said that in the original language the term most commonly translated sin simply means to fall short of or to miss the mark.

If that is correct then yes they sinned.

If one instead takes the modern idea that sin is doing evil, with an implication of willfully and with malice, then no they did not.

In any case I will not judge them, just in case their God is real and the statements on judging others in scripture are accurate. There are far too many points on which I could be judged and found wanting.

 

[brinny]

Which definition of sin?

I've heard it said that in the original language the term most commonly translated sin simply means to fall short of or to miss the mark.

If that is correct then yes they sinned.

If one instead takes the modern idea that sin is doing evil, with an implication of willfully and with malice, then no they did not.

In any case I will not judge them, just in case their God is real and the statements on judging others in scripture are accurate. There are far too many points on which I could be judged and found wanting.

Thank you for this most gracious response. It is well thought out. My thoughts are similar. There was no "willful and deliberate sin" per se, but merely a weakness that we are all prone too (and yes, this includes Christians). It isn't "us" who are strong or who "have enough faith", it is the One we believe in Who we have faith IN, and Who strengtrhens us in order for us even to believe in Him.

The example of the man admitting he did not believe, and asking Jesus to help his unbelief, was honest. NONE of us believe unless we ask Jesus to help us do so. In that case it is an honest plea and is admitting "lacking" and admitting Who supplies what we lack. This in itself is a powerful testimony in itself.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Givemeareason]

Were they still believers even if their faith wavered? Where does "faith" come from, and the "strength" of that faith? Is it "us" just being "strong" enough in "our" faith?

Was this man appropriate in what he said here:

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."" ~Mark 9:24

Thank you kindly.

Your description of faith sounds different than mine. Faith is something I gain from becoming convinced. Being convinced can occur in varying degrees hence faith can waver. How many miracles would it take to convince someone. The disciples observed incredible miracles to the point of having no means to explain or deny them. They had the words of Jesus right there. Yet they still weren't convinced? Most people have nothing convincing and yet they still believe. Clearly there are vastly different levels of being convinced. Based on the fact that children are easily convinced it would seem to indicate that the amount of convincing needed will depend on the criteria we have set within ourselves. In other words what do we know and how has that affected our views of reality. That will vary widely. My struggle is the one of faith vs reason. I am not convinced they cannot coexist since it is quite evident that some scientists are able to hang their faith and beliefs at the door while they practice science. Yet there must be reconciliation to some extent. However back to the disciples I still cannot grasp why they had so little faith after all that had empowered them.

 

[Givemeareason]

Did you miss Pentecost and the dramatic change that took place in them when the Spirit of God came to indwell and empower them???

I am not a pentacostal.