Why were people offended when Christ came?

ebia

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bhsmte said:
It's not evidence that they would expect, because they are supposed to investigate (what likely happened in the past) by following a historical method, not what they expect or not expect to find. That is a legitimate historian is supposed to be completely objective and not let bias impact their work.
What evidence would we expect to see - is it missing IS an important question in that, whether for the scientist or the historian. If evidence is missing that should be present that tells us something.

Historians have criteria to judge reliability of evidence; are there any reliable eye witnesses? how many? Do they agree? Have they corroborated with one another? Are they biased? Are there writings about the claim? Who wrote them? Do they agree? Are they independent? Etc. etc. etc. etc.
Indeed. So we have 5 independent accounts of the resurrection, all with signs that they were authored within about 20 years of the event and each including details that would be crazy to include if they were made up.
 
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ebia

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bhsmte said:
Dig a little further and you will understand what I mean about Paul, compared to say the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Which by the way, were not authored by; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The gospels are telling the story. Paul is writing to the communities formed around that story to address particular issues - he doesn't tell the story but assumes it, just as the Canons of the Anglican Church of Australia do.

Authorship of the gospels isn't relevant to this train of thought so I won't address your partial accuracy there.
 
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ebia

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bhsmte said:
Also, independent of how historians do their work, ask yourself the following question:

If another faith was making claims in their holy book about miracles, rising from the dead etc. etc., what sort of evidence would you require before you acknowledged them as likely true?

I'd start by looking at the community promoting the book. If I found that encouraging then I might read the book itself - that's the primary data. So far none has passed that test.
 
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ebia

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HitchSlap said:
I'm not so sure they were. Setting the bible aside as your source of information, there is no other sources to support that one guy named Jesus lived and was crucified during that time in Palestine (no contemporary Jewish or Roman records).
Just about every credible historian (ie person with a position in the history faculty of an accredited academic institution) studying the period accepts that Jesus of Nazareth existed, did some of the kinds of things credited to him, and was crucified.
 
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ebia

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HitchSlap said:
Also being discussed by those same scholars, is paucity of evidence for Jesus, suggesting he may even not have existed at all.
No there isn't.

Even Richard Dawkins couldn't find one for God Delusion - so he cites a professor of German (language) and hopes no-one notices.
 
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HitchSlap

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Just about every credible historian (ie person with a position in an accredited academic institution) studying the period accepts that Jesus of Nazareth existed, did some of the kinds of things credited to him, and was crucified.

There are no contemporary Roman records of Jesus or his death, and they were meticulous in their record keeping. There are no contemporary Jewish records of Jesus or his death, and they were meticulous in their record keeping. There are no other contemporary records of Jesus or his death. There is no archaeological evidence of Christianity until the early third century!

If you have evidence refuting what I have said, I suggest you post it.
 
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bhsmte

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What evidence would we expect to see - is it missing IS an important question in that, whether for the scientist or the historian. If evidence is missing that should be present that tells us something.


Indeed. So we have 5 independent accounts of the resurrection, all with signs that they were authored within about 20 years of the event and each including details that would be crazy to include if they were made up.

Several problems:

The resurrection accounts contradict each other. In fact, Mark's resurrection writings ended at the women going to the tomb (according to the oldest copies of the NT). When this was discovered, the powers at be just decided to go ahead and finish the story for him and they added about 10 verses. Not exactly the most reliable stuff to hang your hat on. The authors didn't get their stories directly from eye witnesses, they were obtained from oral tradition and not from direct sources. Most scholars agree, matthew, mark, luke and john were written between 30 and 70 years after the events happened. Lastly, we have no original copies of the NT, all are lost. We only have copies which begin about 200 years after Jesus lived and over 5,000 copies were establish over the next several hundred years (all with significant differences in them).

You should read about historical method and it may be clearer why objective historians don't recognize the bible as historically reliable.
 
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bhsmte

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There are no contemporary Roman records of Jesus or his death, and they were meticulous in their record keeping. There are no contemporary Jewish records of Jesus or his death, and they were meticulous in their record keeping. There are no other contemporary records of Jesus or his death. There is no archaeological evidence of Christianity until the early third century!

If you have evidence refuting what I have said, I suggest you post it.

I have read a lot of biblical historians and scholars work and everything I have read confirms what you state.
 
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HitchSlap

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I have read a lot of biblical historians and scholars work and everything I have read confirms what you state.

When you really start peeling the onion back, the silence is deafening! It was my opnion, like most other former theists, was that Jesus most likely existed but what was attributed to him was largely, if not mostly, fabricated. Then I started to read Ehrman, Carrier and Fitzgerald, and was blown away by the actual evidence.


Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist: A Historian Explains the Evidence That Changed His Mind - YouTube
 
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ebia

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bhsmte said:
Several problems:

The resurrection accounts contradict each other.
That's how we know they are independent. Independent accounts do contradict each other at the kind of level that the resurrection stories do. If they didn't , we would be certain that they weren't independent.

In fact, Mark's resurrection writings ended at the women going to the tomb (according to the oldest copies of the NT). When this was discovered, the powers at be just decided to go ahead and finish the story for him and they added about 10 verses. Not exactly the most reliable stuff to hang your hat on.
Nobody's hanging anything on the longer ending to Mark.

The authors didn't get their stories directly from eye witnesses, they were obtained from oral tradition and not from direct sources.
now you are stating as fact what you cant say as fact, and you are also implicitly claiming that oral tradition is unreliable against which you need to look not at the outdated theories of German historians of a century ago but the work of people like Ken Bailey who have studied how middle-eastern oral storytelling preserves the story.

(FWIW, there is an Australian Aboriginal story that has recognisably preserved a mythologised account of a real event for over 10,000 years - compared to that 40 years is a piece of cake).

Most scholars agree, matthew, mark, luke and john were written between 30 and 70 years after the events happened. Lastly, we have no original copies of the NT, all are lost. We only have copies which begin about 200 years after Jesus lived and over 5,000 copies were establish over the next several hundred years (all with significant differences in them).
We practically never have the original of an ancient text.
We have far more - orders of magnitude more - manuscripts for the NT close in age to the original than for any compatible ancient text. There are a handful of instances where we don't know quite what to do with a significant passage (eg John 8:2-11). And there are a few instances where we don't know the exact original wording. But nothing that affects the overall picture. The standard you are applying would exclude ALL ancient documents from consideration. We would know nothing of first century Palestine (our copies of Josephus are much less good than the NT) and almost nothing of the first century anywhere.

You should read about historical method and it may be clearer why objective historians don't recognize the bible as historically reliable.
I have. Historians don't divide texts into reliable and not reliable discarding the latter and trusting the former in the way you assume. They recognise that all texts, without exception, are written with an agenda and that all texts, without exception, represent data to be evaluated.
 
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ebia

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HitchSlap said:
When you really start peeling the onion back, the silence is deafening! It was my opnion, like most other former theists, was that Jesus most likely existed but what was attributed to him was largely, if not mostly, fabricated. Then I started to read Ehrman, Carrier and Fitzgerald, and was blown away by the actual evidence.

Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist: A Historian Explains the Evidence That Changed His Mind - YouTube

Now find an accredited historian - one with a tenure in a history faculty at an accredited academic institution.
 
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HitchSlap

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Now find an accredited historian - one with a tenure in a history faculty at an accredited academic institution.

Carrier's not "accredited?'' Since when?

Care to address the facts of zero evidence for the existence of Jesus?
 
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ebia

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HitchSlap said:
Carrier's not "accredited?'' Since when?
No he's not. He's, not a professional historian in an academic institution. A phd and a history of writing and blogging doesn't make one an academic professional. There must be thousands of lecturers and professors of history in universities around the world. How many can you find who doubt Jesus existence? (Clue: Richard Dawkins couldn't find one).
Care to address the facts of zero evidence for the existence of Jesus?
The NT is evidence. The existence of the community that produced it is evidence. Real historians treat it as such. That doesn't mean "automatically believe everything it says"; it means treat it as historical data, the existence of which needs to be explained.


Seriously, you're acting like a creationist arguing that there is no evidence for evolution and citing so called creation-scientists.
 
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bhsmte

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That's how we know they are independent. Independent accounts do contradict each other at the kind of level that the resurrection stories do. If they didn't , we would be certain that they weren't independent.


Nobody's hanging anything on the longer ending to Mark.


now you are stating as fact what you cant say as fact, and you are also implicitly claiming that oral tradition is unreliable against which you need to look not at the outdated theories of German historians of a century ago but the work of people like Ken Bailey who have studied how middle-eastern oral storytelling preserves the story.

(FWIW, there is an Australian Aboriginal story that has recognisably preserved a mythologised account of a real event for over 10,000 years - compared to that 40 years is a piece of cake).


We practically never have the original of an ancient text.
We have far more - orders of magnitude more - manuscripts for the NT close in age to the original than for any compatible ancient text. There are a handful of instances where we don't know quite what to do with a significant passage (eg John 8:2-11). And there are a few instances where we don't know the exact original wording. But nothing that affects the overall picture. The standard you are applying would exclude ALL ancient documents from consideration. We would know nothing of first century Palestine (our copies of Josephus are much less good than the NT) and almost nothing of the first century anywhere.


I have. Historians don't divide texts into reliable and not reliable discarding the latter and trusting the former in the way you assume. They recognise that all texts, without exception, are written with an agenda and that all texts, without exception, represent data to be evaluated.

Historians absolutely want independent accounts, but they also want these accounts to corroborate and these don't. They also want sources who are independent (don't have any motivation to tell a certain story) and that does not exist in this case either.

Nobody has a problem with some author deciding to add verses to Mark later? Well, conservative christian scholars may not have a problem, but the objective unbiased scholars do. One big problem here; the bulk of scholars are christian and many work for religious institutions. Not the most objective environment to rely on when they are on the payroll of these institutions. Ever heard an employee of a company come out and say; "well, i have reviewed our products and they aren't very reliable." You have to look for objectivity and thankfully, it isn't as taboo as it used to be to place objective critique upon the bible.

Oral tradition is not completely unreliable, but it is not a given that it is reliable either, especially when you have motivation to fulfill an agenda, which was clearly the case with the bible.

I would agree that there is a general story that comes out of the NT, even with all the errors, changes and deletions that have been discovered. The next question for historians is; What was the motivation to tell this story and were these people reliable to be accurate or are there other factors involved that make that less likely.
 
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HitchSlap

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No he's not. He's, not a professional historian in an academic institution. A phd and a history of writing and blogging doesn't make one an academic professional. There must be thousands of lecturers and professors of history in universities around the world. How many can you find who doubt Jesus existence? (Clue: Richard Dawkins couldn't find one).

The NT is evidence. The existence of the community that produced it is evidence. Real historians treat it as such. That doesn't mean "automatically believe everything it says"; it means treat it as historical data, the existence of which needs to be explained.


Seriously, you're acting like a creationist arguing that there is no evidence for evolution and citing so called creation-scientists.
Sounds like you're stalling. What contemporary sources have you got for the existence of Jesus.

I'm making the claim that there is no archaeological or contemporary evidence for the life of Jesus. Can you prove me wrong?
 
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Elioenai26

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Sounds like you're stalling. What contemporary sources have you got for the existence of Jesus.

I'm making the claim that there is no archaeological or contemporary evidence for the life of Jesus. Can you prove me wrong?


You are not worthy of even being taken seriously. I hate to say it, but it is true.

If you can sit there and seriously deny the historicity of Jesus, a man whose life and death is attested to in more manuscripts than Julius Caesar himself, then you simply need to do more research.
 
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HitchSlap

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You are not worthy of even being taken seriously. I hate to say it, but it is true.

If you can sit there and seriously deny the historicity of Jesus, a man whose life and death is attested to in more manuscripts than Julius Caesar himself, then you simply need to do more research.

Yes, I'm questioning the historicity of Jesus. I've done the research, and there's no contemporary evidence. As I've said, the silence is deafening. Can you offer any contemporary records or archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus?

If your best defense is one of tradition, essentially stating "but we've always believed Jesus existed, so it must be so," then you've really no defense at all. I challenge you to look at the actual evidence. You can start here.

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/novel1.pdf

BTW, we have contemporary coins with Caesar's name on them.

Tally: Caesar 1, Jesus 0
 
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Elioenai26

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Yes, I'm questioning the historicity of Jesus. I've done the research, and there's no contemporary evidence. As I've said, the silence is deafening. Can you offer any contemporary records or archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus?

If your best defense is one of tradition, essentially stating "but we've always believed Jesus existed, so it must be so," then you've really no defense at all. I challenge you to look at the actual evidence. You can start here.

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/novel1.pdf

Pick up an encyclopedia. Find - Jesus of Nazareth. Read it.

If you have not access to brick and mortar library, consult wikipedia
 
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HitchSlap

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Pick up an encyclopedia. Find - Jesus of Nazareth. Read it.

If you have not access to brick and mortar library, consult wikipedia

No, you read it and provide evidence for your claim that Jesus existed. I won't do your work for you.
 
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Sectio Aurea

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You are not worthy of even being taken seriously. I hate to say it, but it is true.

If you can sit there and seriously deny the historicity of Jesus, a man whose life and death is attested to in more manuscripts than Julius Caesar himself, then you simply need to do more research.

Incorrect!

There has been more written about Jesus throughout history than Caesar, in a vain attempt to corroborate the life and death of Jesus. The abundance of writings about Jesus is not to be confused with "attested to in more manuscripts than Julius Caesar"

The life of Julius Caesar is corroborated.
 
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