Dylan Michael
Senior Veteran
- Jul 15, 2010
- 3,678
- 203
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Private
- Politics
- US-Others
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Exept for two things:
a) the Bible probhits us from praying to the dead
b) the Bible prohibits us from praying to anyone but God
Verses please.
If that were true then how to explain the immediate predecessors of the Apostles doing what is now claimed to be prohibited?Exept for two things:
a) the Bible probhits us from praying to the dead
b) the Bible prohibits us from praying to anyone but God
The Bible clearly says the prayers of some are indeed better than prayers of others James 516, though it is not phrased in that matter. Given that verse and those in Heaven being most righteous, it should "seem to" anyone that the statement in James would certainly apply to their prayers.The key words being "seems to me". But the Bible doesn't say that prayers are made any more or less efficacious depending on who is praying them or where they happen to be praying them from.
Deuteronomy 18:10-11
Leviticus 19:31
Leviticus 20:6
Leviticus 20:27
Deuteronomy 18:11
1 Samuel 28:3
Isaiah 8:19
2 Kings 21:6
One of the closest so called church fathers, Iraneus, AD 180, didn't even know how old Jesus was, or how long his ministry lasted.They had no more knowledge than what we can learn by asking God and meditating in the scriptures.As the Apostles were gone you can see the wolves immediately moved in.All you have to do is read them and you know they had no first hand knowledge, and I dare say the Father of my Lord, has shown me as much as they knew and then some.If that were true then how to explain the immediate predecessors of the Apostles doing what is now claimed to be prohibited?
Again that is someone's interpretation of those prohibitions.
And that interpretation is in direct conflict with the early Church asking (praying) martyrs to intercede for them while at the same time using the above verses to denounce pagan practices concerning the dead.
Obviously they did not interpret those verses as making it wrong to ask martyrs (Saints) to pray for us.
If that were true then how to explain the immediate predecessors of the Apostles doing what is now claimed to be prohibited?
The Bible clearly says the prayers of some are indeed better than prayers of others James 516, though it is not phrased in that matter.
Given that verse and those in Heaven being most righteous
it should "seem to" anyone that the statement in James would certainly apply to their prayers.
Why cast dispersions, assertions about a Father (and whatever "closest" means) rather than addressing the point.One of the closest so called church fathers, Iraneus, AD 180, didn't even know how old Jesus was, or how long his ministry lasted.They had no more knowledge than what we can learn by asking God and meditating in the scriptures.As the Apostles were gone you can see the wolves immediately moved in.All you have to do is read them and you know they had no first hand knowledge, and I dare say the Father of my Lord, has shown me as much as they knew and then some.
Which apostle prayed to a deceased, bur still "alive in Christ" Saint?Again that is someone's interpretation of those prohibitions. And that interpretation is in direct conflict with the early Church asking (praying) martyrs to intercede for them while at the same time using the above verses to denounce pagan practices concerning the dead. Obviously they did not interpret those verses as making it wrong to ask martyrs (Saints) to pray for us.
It is off topic. Check the thread title. Praying to, not for.James told us that. It's not off topic. It's praying for each other. We ask our brethren in Christ for prayers. There's no distinction on "where" they may be. We are alive in Christ, bond together in His Body.
The disciples asked Jesus how to pray. He said, "Our Father ...". We pray to the Father directly. Since Pentecost, we've had direct access to God. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit which means He lives in us. Why would you have someone else be an intermediary between us and God? A dead saint? We are all saints. They cannot answer us anyway, only God can. So, in essence it is a waist of time to pray to Mary or some dead saint and btw, we can confess our sins to one another but it is not required to go to a priest to do this. Again, direct access means we speak directly to God!
Jesus does mention those asking and agreeing on earth here
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Am not sure calling this "my" or "your" interpretation is accurate and certainly not what I wrote. Yes, I hold the view but so have thousands of years of people, so it is more proper to call it the Church's. I find it not particularly helpful to personalize the discussion either.Yes, this is a very common tactic among Catholics: no matter what verse of scripture one presents, just dismiss it by saying, "Well, that's just your interpretation", even if no interpretation was offered. And then, after saying "that's just your interpretation", refuse to explain why you believe the interpretation is wrong or what you believe the correct interpretation to be.
Am not ignoring it, simply think it is rather an obvious no brainer that we do NOT agree on what those verses mean in regards/or as it applies to asking Saints to pray for us.That way, you can believe whatever you want to and any scriptural challenge to your beliefs is just another subjective opinion that you can ignore.
This suggests Catholics do not consider what scriptures say and do not base our beliefs on them. Which besides being untrue and baiting, it goes off topic.Or, you can consider what the scriptures say and base your beliefs upon them.
How could asking in what reasonable world Saint John could allow his flock to ask martyrs to pray for them IF Saint John understood those scriptures as forbidding that practice be looked at as dismissive?It's interesting that you dismiss these verses by saying that "it's just someone's interpretation", when no one offered an interpretation.
Maybe I should tell the judge that less than 30 years after the law was established and taught, it was completely corrupted and from that point on no lawyer or judge had any "first hand knowledge" and that all I have to do is read the law and I know myself what it means.I'm curious: do you apply this unique hermeneutic to other areas of life, as well? I mean, if you get a ticket for running a STOP sign, do you go to court and tell the judge, "Well, Your Honor, sure, you say the sign says 'STOP', but isn't that really just your interpretation"?
Then we would have to assume Saint John knew this and would have corrected this "error" that had "immediately moved in". Instead he depicts something in his vision which, no matter what one believes it shows, would be supportive of people holding this "error" rather than correcting them.Then the early Church was wrong.
The point was that they were doing the very thing being claimed here as wrong according to scripture AND YET they knew these scriptures as Jews first and then Christians, yet are still asking for the prayers of martyrs in Heaven to intercede on their behalf to the Lord. That would make no sense at all if they understood those scriptures as forbidding those prayers.Then you should have no problem showing us where in the Bible or the Didache we're told that it's permissible to pray to the dead.
Except we have the Apostles not only not "correcting" something already being done, but Saint John if not depicting it being done in his vision, depicting what would represent it to those already doing it. Furthermore they are not just doing it, they are doing as part of their regular worship (as we still do at every Mass today).What's to explain? If they violated the Biblical prohibition of praying to the dead, then they were wrong. Scripture is always the standard, not what other men do or believe.
It is simple really. No one is claiming that ONLY the prayers of the righteous are efficacious, clearly God can answer the prayers of any one. But "availeth much" does mean if one had a choice of Prayer Warriors, a righteous person would be a good one to have on your team.So, if it is not "phrased in that matter", how do you know that's what it says? All it says is that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. It doesn't say that the dead in Heaven are any more righteous or that one's righteousness (which, as we all know is really not our righteousness but Christ's righteousness imputed to us) makes a prayer any more or less efficacious.
Because they are in Heaven and a person could not be there and not be righteous. The unrighteous have a different destination.How do you know they're "most righteous"? How do you know they're righeous at all, when Jesus very clearly said that no one is righteous but God alone (Mark 10:18)?
No my logic was that the early Church asking martyrs to intercede with the Lord on their behalf during their regular worship would not be able to do that if the Apostles and the predominately Jewish leadership immediately replacing them (and who undoubtedly were leading some of these worship prayers when in attendance) understood those OT verses as meaning "don't pray to the dead" and applied that to asking martyrs for something.So, let me try to understand your reasoning: a verse that says "don't pray to the dead" is "just someone's interpretation", while we should take your word that verses that "are not phrased in that matter" and "seem to" shoud be taken at face value?
If it that wern't so sad, I'd be rolling out of my chair right now.There is a problem with this view of "praying" to Saints, as if they're God or gods. Wrong. We ASK them to pray for us. We ASK for their prayers just like anybody else. Here's a simple example that I say on occasion:
St. John the Wonderworker of San Francisco, please pray for my son.
Mother of God (or Most Holy Theotokos), please pray for us.
St. Nektarios, please pray for my son.
THAT'S IT.
And then when asking for prayers from family and friends:
Person's name: Please pray for my son, ___________.
Family member: please pray for __________.
No difference. Why? Because we're all one Body ALIVE in Christ. There is no one DEAD in Christ. That's an oxymoron.
So, whether I ask my friend, Lisa, to pray for my son or St. Nektarios to pray for my son, it's the same, with the only difference being one is in the very presence of God with no distance and no veil upon their eyes. God works through His saints, and joins them together. With God, this happens.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?