Why was sin created in the first place?

[JagDragon]

Being a first-timer here, I'm not sure if this is the right forum or not, but it's my best bet.

The other night we had a bible study on the topic of predestination. Mind-bending stuff, but while discussing that we moved on to the topic of God knowing us at the time of creation, way before we were born. Which raised some pretty hefty questions for me.

Provided that the Lord is omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing, even about future events), and all-loving:

• Why did He create sin in the first place? I mean, if He didn't create sin, then there would be no need for any sacrifices at all!
• Why did He allow hell to be created, and why does He allow people to go there? I mean, sure, they have sinned, but it seems a bit extreme to condemn people He loves to eternal torture.
• What is with all this predestination stuff and condemning half the human race to hell before the world was even created?

These questions have been plaguing me for weeks, I would gratefully accept anyone's thoughts on this.

 

[gluadys]

Being a first-timer here, I'm not sure if this is the right forum or not, but it's my best bet.

The other night we had a bible study on the topic of predestination. Mind-bending stuff, but while discussing that we moved on to the topic of God knowing us at the time of creation, way before we were born. Which raised some pretty hefty questions for me.

Provided that the Lord is omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing, even about future events), and all-loving:

• Why did He create sin in the first place? I mean, if He didn't create sin, then there would be no need for any sacrifices at all!
• Why did He allow hell to be created, and why does He allow people to go there? I mean, sure, they have sinned, but it seems a bit extreme to condemn people He loves to eternal torture.
• What is with all this predestination stuff and condemning half the human race to hell before the world was even created?

These questions have been plaguing me for weeks, I would gratefully accept anyone's thoughts on this.

It is probably not the right place, but I'll give it a go anyway.

1. God did not create sin; he created freedom. Sin comes about because those who are free to choose instead of having their behaviour programmed into their instincts, are also free to rebel against God's will. At the same time, those who are free to choose are also free to love God with all their hearts and to obey out of love rather than out of necessity.

2. The biblical concept of "hell" is probably very different from popular concepts. In the KJV it is used most often to translate the Hebrew 'Sheol' and the Greek 'Hades', both words meaning simply 'the place of the dead' with no connotation of eternal torment. In 2nd Peter it is used for the Greek 'Tartarus' which in Greek mythology was a place in Hades where notorious criminals were punished. This is the only example of this use. It is used in the gospels where Jesus refers to 'Gehenna' the large garbage dump outside of Jerusalem as an image of the fate of the unsaved. Fires were kept going in Gehenna all the time to consume the garbage. And, of course, where the fires did not reach, there were plenty of worms feasting on the decaying material. Jesus is saying in effect that the damned will be tossed into the garbage and consumed by fire and worms. In Revelation, it is said that death and hell (the place of the dead) will be cast into the Lake of Fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Those resurrected and not found to be among the elect are also cast into the Lake of Fire.

The whole notion of eternal torment depends on the concept that the soul apart from God is still immortal. The origin of that doctrine lies more in Greek philosophy than in the Hebrew scriptures, but it was adopted by the Catholic church and has not been questioned by most Protestant churches either.

My own position is that we are not originally created immortal. That is why the Tree of Life was placed in the Garden of Eden, so that by tasting of its fruit we could gain immortality. Immortality is offered through Christ and as Paul told the Corinthians, it is when the trumpet sounds announcing his return that "the dead (he is speaking of the believing dead here, as in Thessalonians) will be raised imperishable" and those still alive will exchange their mortality for immortality. Eternal life and immortality are always connected with salvation in scripture so I see no reason to consider that it applies to the damned.

But even if one accepts the idea of an immortal soul for all, including the damned, God doesn't really need to create hell. The essence of hell is the absence of God, not flames or worms. Hell is any place or state of being in which one is not united to God. (One pastor passed on this idea: "The flames of hell are the fires of God's love as experienced by those who reject it.")

3. The position you are describing is called "double-decree predestination" which holds that God wills the damnation of some. Another softer version is "single-decree predestination" which holds that God does not will the damnation of any but wills only the salvation of the elect. To me this seems more in accord with scripture which always speaks of predestination positively as a doctrine of hope.

In neither case can we say that "half the human race" is condemned. We have no knowledge of how many God will choose to save or what proportion of the whole of humanity it is. Maybe it is only 10% not half. (Some Christians hold that the saved will be a very tiny remnant of all of humanity.) Maybe it will be 95%. In any case we should treat all as if they are potentially among the elect and be silent on what is not given to us to know.

 

[JagDragon]

1. God did not create sin; he created freedom. Sin comes about because those who are free to choose instead of having their behaviour programmed into their instincts, are also free to rebel against God's will. At the same time, those who are free to choose are also free to love God with all their hearts and to obey out of love rather than out of necessity.

But God knew that by creating freedom that that would invariably lead to sin, so in effect he did create sin (by proxy, though).

*snip*
My own position is that we are not originally created immortal. That is why the Tree of Life was placed in the Garden of Eden, so that by tasting of its fruit we could gain immortality. Immortality is offered through Christ and as Paul told the Corinthians, it is when the trumpet sounds announcing his return that "the dead (he is speaking of the believing dead here, as in Thessalonians) will be raised imperishable" and those still alive will exchange their mortality for immortality. Eternal life and immortality are always connected with salvation in scripture so I see no reason to consider that it applies to the damned.
*snip*

Well, that makes a lot more sense, I was always unsure of eternal damnation. However, I don't quite get the bit where you say that we were not originally created immortal, and the tree of life made us immortal, or able to receive immortality through christ? I don't quite get a need for that...

3. The position you are describing is called "double-decree predestination" which holds that God wills the damnation of some. Another softer version is "single-decree predestination" which holds that God does not will the damnation of any but wills only the salvation of the elect. To me this seems more in accord with scripture which always speaks of predestination positively as a doctrine of hope.

But if anyone who isn't saved is damned then isn't it the same thing, just from a cup-half-full perspective?


Thankyou overall for your response, apart from the few queries above it was very enlightening.

 

[gluadys]

But God knew that by creating freedom that that would invariably lead to sin, so in effect he did create sin (by proxy, though).

That's a bit like saying a parent who teaches a child to ride a bicycle, knowing that the child will have some falls, in effect causes those falls.

However, I don't quite get the bit where you say that we were not originally created immortal, and the tree of life made us immortal, or able to receive immortality through christ? I don't quite get a need for that...

Well, symbolically the tree of life is Christ so there is really no difference.

But if anyone who isn't saved is damned then isn't it the same thing, just from a cup-half-full perspective?

That's the usual reaction, but I think it still makes a difference at the level of God's will. It is one thing not to elect; it is a different thing to decree damnation. Basically, the followers of Calvin (not so much Calvin himself) made a schmozzle out of predestination. All sorts of discussions on pre-lapsarian vs.post-lapsarian decrees, single-or-double decree, based on fore-knowledge or totally by grace. 5-point TULIP or 4 or 3, etc. And much more concern about who is not saved than who is. Probably because scripture doesn't mention predestination often, so one is free to let imagination run wild.

When I first learned about it in confirmation class, the facet of predestination which I found attractive is that salvation depends on the grace of God, not on myself (grace not works); that God has chosen me and will not let me go; that God takes not only the first step, but many steps to ensure the salvation of his elect. God doesn't give up if his first invitation is ignored or refused, but comes again and again and again until you are ready to say "yes". All this stands in sharp contrast to the religious systems that Paul and later Calvin were opposing. In Paul's case, the legalism of the Pharisees which demanded perfect conformity to the law (as they interpreted it) and in Calvin's case to the sacramentalism of the Catholic church accessible only through the priests and at their discretion.

The doctrine of predestination was originally intended to convey a message of hope in God's love that cuts through such man-made barriers to God. Access to God does not depend on keeping laws or receiving sacraments or being in any way worthy of salvation. It is not something one has to strive for. It does not in any way depend on myself, but entirely on God. One can be the worst of sinners, and still, by God's grace, be saved. And that is good news.

Thankyou overall for your response, apart from the few queries above it was very enlightening.

Glad it was helpful.

 

[mark kennedy]

Being a first-timer here, I'm not sure if this is the right forum or not, but it's my best bet.

The other night we had a bible study on the topic of predestination. Mind-bending stuff, but while discussing that we moved on to the topic of God knowing us at the time of creation, way before we were born. Which raised some pretty hefty questions for me.

Provided that the Lord is omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing, even about future events), and all-loving:

• Why did He create sin in the first place? I mean, if He didn't create sin, then there would be no need for any sacrifices at all!

• 
  
  Sin is not the presence of something, it's the absence of 'righteousness', both the Old and New Testament emphasis this key element. Sin was not God's creation, as far as the actual origin of sin the Fall of Man in Genesis 3 (See also Rom 5 and ICor 15) indicate that sin has it's origin in free will.
  
  

  [*]Why did He allow hell to be created, and why does He allow people to go there? I mean, sure, they have sinned, but it seems a bit extreme to condemn people He loves to eternal torture.

  
  God did not allow hell to be created, he created it for good reason. It's called perdition and it's actually the opposite of being born again. There is a point of no return in a persons choices, they cannot repent because they will not repent and it does not matter what the benefits or consequences might be. God laments the fall of the wicked:
  
  
  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15)​
  
  The mystery of sin while difficult will always go back to the Fall of Man and the Fall of Satan. Bear in mind I'm an evangelical so I answer this question based on my theological convictions:
  
  
  You were the model of perfection,
  full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
  
  You were in Eden,
  the garden of God;
  every precious stone adorned you:
  ruby, topaz and emerald,
  chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
  sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
  Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
  on the day you were created they were prepared.
  
  You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
  for so I ordained you.
  You were on the holy mount of God;
  you walked among the fiery stones.
  
  You were blameless in your ways
  from the day you were created
  till wickedness was found in you. (Ezekiel 28 12-15)​
  
  

  [*]What is with all this predestination stuff and condemning half the human race to hell before the world was even created?

Predestination is a word only used a couple of times, (see Acts 4:28; I Cor 2:7; Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:5, 11) where Paul talks about us being 'predestined' in the likeness of Christ. It's actually a fascinating word and it's the idea of to 'mark out beforehand, to determine before, foreordain'. The emphasis is not really so much on you as it is on Christ. God determined before the foundation of the world that all who would be saved would be perfected in the person and work of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit by the will of the Father.

It's not so much that God had a black list for some but that he had a standard for all, the righteousness of God in Christ.

These questions have been plaguing me for weeks, I would gratefully accept anyone's thoughts on this.

Don't feel alone, you picked some pretty tough questions. Christians have long struggled with them. Get into the Word and be in prayer, I think you will find that the answers, when you finally get them are not as complex as you first imagined.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[shernren]

Well, the shin ish connected to tha' - kneebone, and the knee ish connected to tha' -

whaddaya mean, "not that shin"? I guesh I oughta shober up a bit. *hic*

 

[mark kennedy]

Well, the shin ish connected to tha' - kneebone, and the knee ish connected to tha' -

whaddaya mean, "not that shin"? I guesh I oughta shober up a bit. *hic*

Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.
But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night. (Psalm 1:1,2)​

I'm amazed that no one ever calls you on this:

"How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?

If you had responded to my rebuke,
I would have poured out my heart to you
and made my thoughts known to you.

But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,

since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,

I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you- (Proverbs 1:-22-26)​

Shame on you, that's something you should have outgrown in grade school.

 

[crawfish]

Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.
But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night. (Psalm 1:1,2)​

I'm amazed that no one ever calls you on this:

"How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?

If you had responded to my rebuke,
I would have poured out my heart to you
and made my thoughts known to you.

But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,

since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,

I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you- (Proverbs 1:-22-26)​

Shame on you, that's something you should have outgrown in grade school.

I look at your profile picture when you post this stuff, Mark, and I get very, very afraid. No more tomfoolery from me.

 

[mark kennedy]

I look at your profile picture when you post this stuff, Mark, and I get very, very afraid. No more tomfoolery from me.

Ok, don't worry about the fact that I serve if that's what you mean. We actually have some strict rules about using force. Besides that I'm a fueler, I don't do the combat arms things except in extreme circumstances. Trust me, what I do for a living has little to do with these silly debates, it's just a pass time.

Have a nice day
Mark

 

[Willtor]

Being a first-timer here, I'm not sure if this is the right forum or not, but it's my best bet.

No worries. This is kind of related to Origins Theology. If a moderator thinks it belongs somewhere else, it will get moved.

Welcome to CF, JagDragon!

The other night we had a bible study on the topic of predestination. Mind-bending stuff, but while discussing that we moved on to the topic of God knowing us at the time of creation, way before we were born. Which raised some pretty hefty questions for me.

Provided that the Lord is omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing, even about future events), and all-loving:

• Why did He create sin in the first place? I mean, if He didn't create sin, then there would be no need for any sacrifices at all!
• Why did He allow hell to be created, and why does He allow people to go there? I mean, sure, they have sinned, but it seems a bit extreme to condemn people He loves to eternal torture.
• What is with all this predestination stuff and condemning half the human race to hell before the world was even created?

These questions have been plaguing me for weeks, I would gratefully accept anyone's thoughts on this.

I'll respond to each of these below:

Why did He create sin in the first place? I mean, if He didn't create sin, then there would be no need for any sacrifices at all!

That's a good question. Sin is not a thing like righteousness is a thing. Darkness is not a thing like light is a thing. It might help to imagine sin as "un-creation." We are created in the image of God, but we mar the image. God's recreation in us is like a painter who, in finding His painting disfigured, repairs it. The marred painting is not a different painting. It is His creation, but it has been un-made in some degree or another.

Why did He allow hell to be created, and why does He allow people to go there? I mean, sure, they have sinned, but it seems a bit extreme to condemn people He loves to eternal torture.

Indeed. As Gluadys points out, a lot of our notions of what Hell is are not from the Bible. The Hebrew "Sheol" is much more ambiguous. In the Old Testament, there was the general sense of surviving death... but unto an unknown life. Jesus' comments on the matter are always veiled in allegory.

The general sense I get of Hell is as the absence of Heaven (much as the relationship between sin and righteousness, above). E.g., the wedding guests refuse to dress themselves appropriately, so they are refused entry to the wedding. (Mt. 22:1-14) Much of it seems pointed at the Sadducees who were kind of like the "prosperity gospel" people of their day. It was surprising to the original hearers that the rabble would come into the feast and that the invited would remain outside. But the idea is clear: if you will have fellowship with God, then you will have a place with Him. If not, you will not.

It is not that those outside have sinned. We have all sinned, and the King was willing that both the good and the bad would enter.

What is with all this predestination stuff and condemning half the human race to hell before the world was even created?

That God would know who would and would not join Him at the "banquet" follows from the idea of time as His creation. We experience time and make decisions in time and perceive (dimly) time that has come before. We say that a thing has not happened, yet, but only because we cannot see the time that is yet to come. God perceives all.

As to whether half the world is condemned, I strongly identify with Gluadys. This is a distinction that God and people make. Let us love them all like brothers and remind them (just as we do, one another) that there is a banquet and we need to be dressed for it.

 

[JagDragon]

Thank you for your post, but it just seems to raise more quesions

That's a good question. Sin is not a thing like righteousness is a thing. Darkness is not a thing like light is a thing. It might help to imagine sin as "un-creation." We are created in the image of God, but we mar the image. God's recreation in us is like a painter who, in finding His painting disfigured, repairs it. The marred painting is not a different painting. It is His creation, but it has been un-made in some degree or another.

Yes, what you are talking about is a "privative", the lack of something usually present. Like cold is the lack of heat energy, darkness the lack of light energy, sin the lack of holiness. However, how did a perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing being manage to create something as fundamentally flawed as us?

 

[Willtor]

Thank you for your post, but it just seems to raise more quesions



Yes, what you are talking about is a "privative", the lack of something usually present. Like cold is the lack of heat energy, darkness the lack of light energy, sin the lack of holiness. However, how did a perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing being manage to create something as fundamentally flawed as us?

He didn't create us fundamentally flawed. Insofar as you can see the image of God in people, _that_ is how He made us. Sometimes it shines through. Sometimes it doesn't. But when it doesn't, it isn't because we were made with faults.

 

[Mallon]

Ask yourself this, JagDragon: If God did not create us with free will -- without the ability to accept or reject Him -- could we really love Him? Or would we just be robots programmed to carry out His predetermined commands? Would that be love?

 

[JagDragon]

Ask yourself this, JagDragon: If God did not create us with free will -- without the ability to accept or reject Him -- could we really love Him? Or would we just be robots programmed to carry out His predetermined commands? Would that be love?

So if sin cannot exist without free will, then that must be how he created us this way. But if when we go to heaven, and we are freed from sin, that means our free will is stripped as well. So does that mean that heaven is just as silly as creating us as mindless robots?

 

[Mallon]

So if sin cannot exist without free will, then that must be how he created us this way. But if when we go to heaven, and we are freed from sin, that means our free will is stripped as well. So does that mean that heaven is just as silly as creating us as mindless robots?

That's a great question, and one I've asked myself. I suspect that once we see the full glory of God in heaven, it'll be an easy choice!

 

[JagDragon]

That's a great question, and one I've asked myself. I suspect that once we see the full glory of God in heaven, it'll be an easy choice!

Yeah, but a choice like "Choose cake or death", is not really a choice at all. Ergo, no free will.

 

[jacks]

Hi JagDragon

Nothing exists without its opposite. There is no light without dark, no good without bad, no up without down and no perfection without sin. Sin has to exist in order for a sinless state to be possible. In other words if there was no sin, how would you know if you were sinless.

It also goes to Mallon's comment without the ability not to love, how can one know love?

 

[JagDragon]

Sin has to exist in order for a sinless state to be possible. In other words if there was no sin, how would you know if you were sinless.

God is omnipotent. Surely this would be a breeze for him.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

ugg..Sin isn't a created force, its a free will action against God Statutes, nothing more.

 

[Mallon]

Yeah, but a choice like "Choose cake or death", is not really a choice at all. Ergo, no free will.

Why is it not a choice? An easy choice is still a choice.