Why was sin created in the first place?

[Mallon]

The problem with this analogy is that it would make darkness or sin (or anything else, for that matter) a powerful force existing independent of God! That would go against God's sovereignty.

Why would the fact that darkness exists apart from God (as the Bible tells us) make it more powerful than God? What can darkness do that God can't?

Yes, free will is a gift and I never said being a robot is better. I do not see why you'd even ask this.

Because you appear to think that free will is a curse from the things you say.

 

[simonpeter]

Why would the fact that darkness exists apart from God (as the Bible tells us) make it more powerful than God? What can darkness do that God can't?

I am talking about control here, not merely the existence of darkness or sin. Does God control sin or not?

Because you appear to think that free will is a curse from the things you say.

Luther on Free Will:

The very name, Free-will, was odious to all the Fathers. I, for my part, admit that God gave to mankind a free will, but the question is, whether this same freedom be in our power and strength, or no? We may very fitly call it a subverted, perverse, fickle, and wavering will, for it is only God that works in us, and we must suffer and be subject to his pleasure. Even as a potter out of his clay makes a pot or vessel, as he wills, so it is for our free will, to suffer and not to work. It stands not in our strength; for we are not able to do anything that is good in divine matters.

 

[gluadys]

I am talking about control here, not merely the existence of darkness or sin. Does God control sin or not?



Luther on Free Will:

The very name, Free-will, was odious to all the Fathers. I, for my part, admit that God gave to mankind a free will, but the question is, whether this same freedom be in our power and strength, or no? We may very fitly call it a subverted, perverse, fickle, and wavering will, for it is only God that works in us, and we must suffer and be subject to his pleasure. Even as a potter out of his clay makes a pot or vessel, as he wills, so it is for our free will, to suffer and not to work. It stands not in our strength; for we are not able to do anything that is good in divine matters.

This is one reason I prefer Calvin to Luther on this point. In this excerpt Luther shows little respect for free will because he thinks that we as sinners have free will here and now. I think Calvin was closer to the truth. We were created with free will and free will is restored to us in redemption, but as sinners we do not have free will here and now. The free will that was a gift of God was lost when we fell into the bondage of sin. Only when Christ liberates us from that bondage does free will become a possibility again and it is only perfected in the resurrection.

And that answers your point about whether God controls sin as well. Yes, of course, as demonstrated in the incarnation, passion, atoning death and resurrection of Christ through which Satan and sin are defeated.

It is not that sin is stronger than God, but it is stronger than us and able to enslave us. God is able to liberate us and did so in Christ.

 

[shernren]

Is Luther using the word "free will" in the same sense that we would use the word today? He seems to be saying that we can freely desire to do good but we can't actually freely do good - as far as I know that wouldn't constitute a totally free will by modern philosophical definitions of freedom.

 

[gluadys]

Is Luther using the word "free will" in the same sense that we would use the word today? He seems to be saying that we can freely desire to do good but we can't actually freely do good - as far as I know that wouldn't constitute a totally free will by modern philosophical definitions of freedom.

I couldn't say. But I do know Calvin would take it a step further and say that without the grace of God we cannot even freely desire to do good.