Why Wait?

[Question.Everything]

(This thread is for those who believe in basic scientific principles)

If you believe science provides an accurate geological/biological picture of our history, you would agree that our species homo sapiens has been around for a roundabout of 200,000 years, give or take (a few thousand years).

Now Jesus carried out his mission (that saved our kind) about 2,000 years ago.

What purpose would God have waiting ~200,000 years (and 1 genocide) to say "Alright, it's time to send my Son as a blood-sacrifice to save you."?

Unless someone can explain the concise reasoning, I fail to see why this doesn't make God imperfect and therefore not real. A perfect entity has absolutely no need or want for this petty humanistic behavior.

 

[ViaCrucis]

(This thread is for those who believe in basic scientific principles)

If you believe science provides an accurate geological/biological picture of our history, you would agree that our species homo sapiens has been around for a roundabout of 200,000 years, give or take (a few thousand years).

Now Jesus carried out his mission (that saved our kind) about 2,000 years ago.

What purpose would God have waiting ~200,000 years (and 1 genocide) to say "Alright, it's time to send my Son as a blood-sacrifice to save you."?

Unless someone can explain the concise reasoning, I fail to see why this doesn't make God imperfect and therefore not real. A perfect entity has absolutely no need or want for this petty humanistic behavior.

Would it really make a difference if it was 200,000 years or 6,000 years in your argument?

How does the fact that anatomically modern human beings had been around for about 200,000 years before Christ came make God imperfect and therefore not real?

I'm completely lost here, how did you get from point A to point B here?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

(This thread is for those who believe in basic scientific principles)

If you believe science provides an accurate geological/biological picture of our history, you would agree that our species homo sapiens has been around for a roundabout of 200,000 years, give or take (a few thousand years).

Now Jesus carried out his mission (that saved our kind) about 2,000 years ago.

What purpose would God have waiting ~200,000 years (and 1 genocide) to say "Alright, it's time to send my Son as a blood-sacrifice to save you."?

Unless someone can explain the concise reasoning, I fail to see why this doesn't make God imperfect and therefore not real. A perfect entity has absolutely no need or want for this petty humanistic behavior.

I'm not a Christian but I have to agree with ViaCrucis. I have no idea how this argument works.

Also, what one genocide are you talking about? The flood?

 

[drich0150]

It seems like you are scraping the bottom of the barrel for this one...

But here goes anyway.

Because it wasn't till 2000 years ago did man have a (more or less) universally written and understood language (Thanks to Alexander the Great) To record His message nor a system of roads (thanks to the Romans) to spread that word to the far corners of the world.

Besides, how do you know that He did wait?

(see what i mean by bottom of the barrel?)

 

[Sanerive]

The time aspect of your question/argument is irrelevant since before 2,000 years ago God was always concerned and involved with the human race. There was always hope that God promised mankind even before Jesus rocked up on the scene.

The Hebrews letter talks about people who were justified by their faith. Even before Israel became a nation there was Melchizedek, a Gentile, who was considered a priest of the God Most High (Gen 14:18). So apparently knowledge of the One True God was out and about in the world. Heb 11 talks about people that were considered justified just by believing in His promises that He gave them.

Regarding the flood, it's not like Enoch and Noah were being all silent about God's displeasure with peeps choices. They voiced stuff out (Jd 14-15, 2 Pet 2:5) and warned people about changing their hearts. Especially since God always talks with people before they get wiped out (Am 3:7).

God doesn't make mistakes. But He does make His plans and heart vulnerable to the sovereignty of his creation. Including the angelic and post angelic beings. Free will. Powerful stuff. Risky stuff. Does God's risk with His creation payoff after the unfolding of all of human history? It must if Jesus died for everyone.

Not sure if this makes sense but I did want to have a crack at this post. It's fun talking about these things and pondering hard questions.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Because it wasn't till 2000 years ago did man have a (more or less) universally written and understood language (Thanks to Alexander the Great) To record His message nor a system of roads (thanks to the Romans) to spread that word to the far corners of the world.

This argument fails on the basis that the OT was written (mostly) in Hebrew. You're saying God needed the invention of writing (specifically Greek)? The Mesopotamians had "true writing" by 3200BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing). The notion that God was waiting to save mankind until mankind learned Greek is just bizarre; not least because the Catholic Church used Latin as the universal language of the Bible and refused to allow the translation of the Bible into other languages for hundreds of years, on pain of death I should add.

I'm only replying to this topic because I was thinking of asking the same question myself as it had been plaguing me for a while. Why did God wait so long to come to our aid and send Jesus? For that matter, why didn't God try and save the Neanderthals? There is clear fossil evidence and DNA evidence that they did exist, and recent studies have shown that up to 4% of our own DNA comes from Neanderthals, which means we were breeding with them at one point (Neanderthals live on in DNA of humans | Science | The Guardian).

Anyway, I'll continue to watch this thread with interest.

 

[Question.Everything]

Would it really make a difference if it was 200,000 years or 6,000 years in your argument?

How does the fact that anatomically modern human beings had been around for about 200,000 years before Christ came make God imperfect and therefore not real?

I'm completely lost here, how did you get from point A to point B here?

-CryptoLutheran

Because I see no purposeful reason for an omniscient and all-loving God to wait through 200,000 years of human suffering before sending the "savior" to repair our brokenness.

Why didn't he save us from the moment we were created?

Knowing what would happen to our species, why didn't God create Blumans to love him instead of Humans? If it's human nature to sin (we are born with sin), you would have to blame the creator for your own nature. Why didn't God just create a different intelligent species that was less humanistic but could also freely love him?

 

[Question.Everything]

Also, what one genocide are you talking about? The flood?

That's the big one.

 

[Question.Everything]

It seems like you are scraping the bottom of the barrel for this one...

Sorry if my question seemed to be "scraping". I've been asking myself the question and can't seem to answer it.

Because it wasn't till 2000 years ago did man have a (more or less) universally written and understood language (Thanks to Alexander the Great) To record His message nor a system of roads (thanks to the Romans) to spread that word to the far corners of the world.

As pointed out, we've had language and roads for a bit longer than 2,000 years. Plus if you're going to take that angle (that the timing is due to literacy and technology), you have to ask yourself why Jesus wasn't the messiah in China, where literacy and technology rates were astronomically higher.

Besides, how do you know that He did wait?

What's the purpose of this question? If he didn't wait, then your reasoning above is flawed and pointless.

To answer it anyway: Biblical dating.

 

[Question.Everything]

There was always hope that God promised mankind even before Jesus rocked up on the scene.

By "rocked up on the scene", you mean was tortured and sacrificed himself to hang on a cross and bleed out?

Regarding the flood, it's not like Enoch and Noah were being all silent about God's displeasure with peeps choices. They voiced stuff out (Jd 14-15, 2 Pet 2:5) and warned people about changing their hearts. Especially since God always talks with people before they get wiped out (Am 3:7).

Why wouldn't God just tell all the people himself that he was displeased? How could he expect fallible humans to accept divine testimony from other fallible humans? If someone came up to me today and said "Repent, for Allah is displeased with your actions and wants you to follow him!", I would think they're a lunatic.

Does God's risk with His creation payoff after the unfolding of all of human history?

This question claims to know the nature of God. If God is omniscient, can he take risks? How is it a risk when he already knows the outcome? And why would God want to take a risk in the first place? Boredom? Loneliness?

 

[Hakan101]

By "rocked up on the scene", you mean was tortured and sacrificed himself to hang on a cross and bleed out?

I don't know why so many people focus on Jesus' physical suffering. Heck, if that's where you're going, Job looks like he went through much worse. The great suffering Jesus went through was spiritual, the innocent Son of God being judged with all the sin of the world. The very people Jesus loved and had come to save were the ones who rejected and killed him.

Why wouldn't God just tell all the people himself that he was displeased? How could he expect fallible humans to accept divine testimony from other fallible humans? If someone came up to me today and said "Repent, for Allah is displeased with your actions and wants you to follow him!", I would think they're a lunatic.

God decided it was good to use men for his ministry. It's symbolic of the relationship we have with him. Everywhere in the Bible, God uses men, it's almost never just God by himself. It says something about a person who doesn't want to be a part of this. Take Jonah, for example. He didn't want to obey God and warn Nineveh of their destruction, because he knew God would have mercy on them, while Jonah actually wanted them to be destroyed.

Speaking of Jonah, I would probably be off-put too by someone saying "Allah" was displeased with me, but when Jonah finally did warn Nineveh that God was about to destroy them, they all repented and changed their ways. They did this out of pure faith, saying, "Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” Which of course, he did.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Because I see no purposeful reason for an omniscient and all-loving God to wait through 200,000 years of human suffering before sending the "savior" to repair our brokenness.

Why didn't he save us from the moment we were created?

Knowing what would happen to our species, why didn't God create Blumans to love him instead of Humans? If it's human nature to sin (we are born with sin), you would have to blame the creator for your own nature. Why didn't God just create a different intelligent species that was less humanistic but could also freely love him?

If I stick my finger into a pool of water it causes ripples to go out in all directions.

I don't think God "waited", that implies temporality in God's experience and existence when I believe He is atemporal.

God's activity isn't about waiting and acting, but simply acting. Think of the Incarnation as dipping a finger in water with ripples moving out in all directions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[drich0150]

This argument fails on the basis that the OT was written (mostly) in Hebrew.

Why do you think it was written in Hebrew? Maybe because it was written to His people?

Now what of all of those who were not of His people? Didn't the OT writings exist in the time before the word was written in the Greek? Why do you suppose that there weren't mass conversions to Judaism in OT times? Especially after the battles that the Israelites defeated everyone? Maybe because for them (gentiles) the word of God was not made available. After all in order to hear the word you had to be at a temple, in order to do that, you must first have been a Jew.

re saying God needed the invention of writing (specifically Greek)? The Mesopotamians had "true writing" by 3200BCE

No. What I am saying is that before the Greek "Reading and writing" was a Dedicated Job for a very select few. After Alexander's campaign, the Greek text and language was made more available to the general population. Thereby taking the magic and mystery out of the texts and placing it in the hands of the common but educated man.

The notion that God was waiting to save mankind until mankind learned Greek is just bizarre;

To whom? You? Again who are you?

not least because the Catholic Church used Latin as the universal language of the Bible and refused to allow the translation of the Bible into other languages for hundreds of years, on pain of death I should add.

This was done in the 3rd century after the new "pope" decided to cease power and control of what was meant to be an independent church. By changing the texts to Latin The scriptures were taken from the common man and turned back into Magic and mystery again to everyone but a select few. Why? the consolidation of power.

I'm only replying to this topic because I was thinking of asking the same question myself as it had been plaguing me for a while. Why did God wait so long to come to our aid and send Jesus?

Because before that time "we" were not ready, the Jews were not ready.

For that matter, why didn't God try and save the Neanderthals?

Maybe that is why we had the flood.. To save "us" from them.

 

[drich0150]

What's the purpose of this question? If he didn't wait, then your reasoning above is flawed and pointless.

For the very same reason He choose The Jews and Gentiles. Even though they did not like Each other they were united under Rome. As such there was a universally understood language, and a system of roads linking one "Roman" City after another. Therefore the word could be recorded and passed from place to place without precedence. Look at all the traveling the early apostles did. they literally walked from one end of the known world to the other. This would not have been possible if these two things were not WELL ESTABLISHED.

China on the other hand Was not the model of an effective Empire modern historians would have us to blindly accept. The first efforts to unite China can be attributed to Zhou Dynasty 441-221 BC, but this wa in name only. There was still much infighting between the different city states, and warlords controlled much of the countryside between large city states.

In 221 BC Zheng did Unite the previously waring city states, but this point the people of China had their God in their empire, and no longer sought God but a "balance" or they sought "the way." Either way, their Hearts were not looking for God. However if you look at what the Jews and Gentiles were doing they were indeed reaching out to God. Or looking for a God(s)

If you were looking to find someone who is looking for you, would you look in a place where no one cares? or would you go to a place were people are searching?

What's the purpose of this question?

To show you the pointless nature of asking a question based on an assumption. God could have tried in China just like He could have tried in the middle east, but that effort could have died with the prophets He sent.

 

[razeontherock]

As pointed out, we've had language and roads for a bit longer than 2,000 years. Plus if you're going to take that angle (that the timing is due to literacy and technology), you have to ask yourself why Jesus wasn't the messiah in China,

Sorry, your refutation fails because you have failed to consider the content.

1) Israel is G-d's chosen people, not China

2) The stated purpose for waiting is not simply language and roads, but both being well-established over an area large enough and diverse enough that the historical elements of the Gospel couldn't be erased, and therefore worthless.

That really is your answer. (Which is not to say that G-d can't have other reasons as well; He might)

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

Because I see no purposeful reason for an omniscient and all-loving God to wait through 200,000 years of human suffering before sending the "savior" to repair our brokenness.

Why didn't he save us from the moment we were created?

Alright. I understand now. It's not scraping the bottom of the barrel. This question makes sense.

It just never occurred to me to ask this question because I don't see that Jesus actually did anything at all to improve the human condition.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Why do you think it was written in Hebrew? Maybe because it was written to His people?

Now what of all of those who were not of His people? Didn't the OT writings exist in the time before the word was written in the Greek? Why do you suppose that there weren't mass conversions to Judaism in OT times? Especially after the battles that the Israelites defeated everyone? Maybe because for them (gentiles) the word of God was not made available. After all in order to hear the word you had to be at a temple, in order to do that, you must first have been a Jew.

No. What I am saying is that before the Greek "Reading and writing" was a Dedicated Job for a very select few. After Alexander's campaign, the Greek text and language was made more available to the general population. Thereby taking the magic and mystery out of the texts and placing it in the hands of the common but educated man.

To whom? You? Again who are you?

This was done in the 3rd century after the new "pope" decided to cease power and control of what was meant to be an independent church. By changing the texts to Latin The scriptures were taken from the common man and turned back into Magic and mystery again to everyone but a select few. Why? the consolidation of power.

Because before that time "we" were not ready, the Jews were not ready.

Maybe that is why we had the flood.. To save "us" from them.

Very unconvincing answers. God saved us from Neanderthals? Actually, I think you'll find that they were wiped out by a combination of disease and fights with humans (according to the stuff I've read). Also, if the Flood was meant to wipe out Neanderthals, why aren't Neanderthals mentioned in the Bible. We have to presume that God made homo sapiens (according to Scripture), not Neanderthals. Unless you're suggesting that Adam and Eve were Neanderthals... in which case you would have to acknowledge some form of evolution took place.

Secondly, you suggest that God waited until Alexander so he (God) could write to us in Greek; then you say this...

Why do you think it was written in Hebrew? Maybe because it was written to His people?

...when I mention the Old Testament being written in Hebrew. Did you just backtrack? Or could it be you just have no solid answer on the matter? In fact, I doubt any Christian does. This is why I, as an atheist, find the Bible to be problematic - there are just too many gaps in there for it to be convincing.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

I don't know why so many people focus on Jesus' physical suffering. Heck, if that's where you're going, Job looks like he went through much worse.

Thank you.

The great suffering Jesus went through was spiritual, the innocent Son of God being judged with all the sin of the world. The very people Jesus loved and had come to save were the ones who rejected and killed him.

Actually, the Sadducees were the ones primarily responsible for killing Jesus. The vast majority of Jews never had any contact at all with Jesus during his lifetime.

 

[razeontherock]

Beautiful Ignorance, you wrote "I don't see that Jesus actually did anything at all to improve the human condition."

Well that's certainly a very non-Christian view, and here in the outreach section of the forum, out of the 3 active sub-forums only CWR welcomes that from other than the OP. Please notice how these are set up to operate, and their rules.

Thank you

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

Why do you think it was written in Hebrew? Maybe because it was written to His people?

Now what of all of those who were not of His people? Didn't the OT writings exist in the time before the word was written in the Greek? Why do you suppose that there weren't mass conversions to Judaism in OT times? Especially after the battles that the Israelites defeated everyone? Maybe because for them (gentiles) the word of God was not made available. After all in order to hear the word you had to be at a temple, in order to do that, you must first have been a Jew.

First of all, in Chapter 9 of Genesis, God gives Noah the Noahide laws and makes the Noahide covenant with extends to all people and the decendents of Noah, which were all peoples, had the word of God.

Secondly, it has never been part of Old Testament religion that all peoples were to convert to Judaism. A righteous gentile, which was someone who kept the Naohide laws, had a place in the world to come. Also, an eternal Hell was not part of the Old Testament religion and still isn't part of Judaism to this day and so their was no particular need to try to convert the whole world to Judaism.

In the book of Ruth, Naomi send Ruth away three times before converting her to their religion. The Jewish Rabbis have followed this same tradition of turning away potential converts away three times ever since.