WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[LoveGodsWord]

So why no answer to the 1 Cor 5:5 teaching: deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Does the idea of destruction of flesh as a precondition to salvation of the spirit not fit with your view that destruction is total and the end of the line? How do you account for the language used by Paul in this verse? Why should the teaching not be applied to your hyper-literal reading of these 'destruction' scriptures, particularly when the revelation of Jesus Christ is the triumph of God's Salvation?

I see so your trying to argue here that 1 Corinthians 5:5 is teaching that the wicked get sent to Satan after the judgement of the second coming, so that their flesh can get destroyed and that their Spirit can be saved? Well problem is with that interpretation of the scriptures is that of context. For that interpretation to even be considered, the scripture would need to say after Judgement and second coming of Jesus not before the second coming.

Also you might want to consider the full context of the scripture you provided.

1 Corinthians 5:1-9
[1], It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2], And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3], For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4], In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5], To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[6], Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
[7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
[8], Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[9], I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators

Key points taken out of the scriptures above and not read into the scriptures...

• It was reported that there was a man among the Corinthians Church that was guilty of fornication with his fathers wife - 1 Corinthians 5:1
  
• Corinthians Church was not upset about the behavior of the fornicating man - 1 Corinthians 5:2
  
• Paul has already made judgement concerning this man - 1 Corinthians 5:3-4
• In the name of the Lord Paul says the Corinthian Church is to hand the fornicator over or remove the fornicator from the Church to Satan (excommunication) that perhaps he might be led to repentance for the destruction of the flesh (σάρξ (sárx | G4561 means sinful human nature) - 1 Corinthians 5:5
  
• The man was to be removed from the Church (excommunicated) because a little leaven leavens the whole lump and his actions would contaminate the Church - 1 Corinthians 5:6-9

The scriptures above are about a Corinthians Church believer that was fornicating with his fathers wife. The scriptures are about excommunication because if the man was allowed to stay in the Church his influence would contaminate the whole Church because a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

I am not much into commentaries but you can see how the scholars interpret the scriptures here linked and here linked if your interested. All of which disagree with you.

Well I will give you credit for at least trying to find some scripture but no dear friend, there is no (zero) scripture that supports a view that the unrepentant wicked are given eternal life after the judgement and the second coming. The teachings of Universalism in my view as stated earlier is simply repeating the same lies from the Serpent told to Eve in the garden of Eden where the Serpent told Eve you can disobey Gods' Word and not surely die (Genesis 3:1-5).

Take Care.

 

[ozso]

Easy to tell actual typing from copy/paste.

Check the time stamps against the number of words to determine the words per minute speed. That's telling.

Number of words is easy to estimate. Count the words in an average line and multiply by the number of lines.

I'm not saying copy and paste per se, but rather just a standard speil. The same is used regarding once saved always saved and free grace. Basically the standard formula for excluding whomever from the kingdom.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I see so your trying to argue here that 1 Corinthians 5:5 is teaching that the wicked get sent to Satan after the judgement of the second coming, so that their flesh can get destroyed and that their Spirit can be saved? Well problem is with that interpretation of the scriptures is that of context. For that interpretation to even be considered, the scripture would need to say after Judgement and second coming of Jesus not before the second coming.

Also you might want to consider the full context of the scripture you provided.

1 Corinthians 5:1-9
[1], It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2], And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3], For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4], In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5], To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[6], Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
[7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
[8], Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[9], I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators

Key points taken out of the scriptures above and not read into the scriptures...

• It was reported that there was a man among the Corinthians Church that was guilty of fornication with his fathers wife - 1 Corinthians 5:1
  
• Corinthians Church was not upset about the behavior of the fornicating man - 1 Corinthians 5:2
  
• Paul has already made judgement concerning this man - 1 Corinthians 5:3-4
• In the name of the Lord Paul says the Corinthian Church is to hand the fornicator over or remove the fornicator from the Church to Satan (excommunication) that perhaps he might be led to repentance for the destruction of the flesh (σάρξ (sárx | G4561 means sinful human nature) - 1 Corinthians 5:5
  
• The man was to be removed from the Church (excommunicated) because a little leaven leavens the whole lump and his actions would contaminate the Church - 1 Corinthians 5:6-9

The scriptures above are about a Corinthians Church believer that was fornicating with his fathers wife. The scriptures are about excommunication because if the man was allowed to stay in the Church his influence would contaminate the whole Church because a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

I am not much into commentaries but you can see how the scholars interpret the scriptures here linked and here linked if your interested. All of which disagree with you.

Well I will give you credit for at least trying to find some scripture but no dear friend, there is no (zero) scripture that supports a view that the unrepentant wicked are given eternal life after the judgement and the second coming. The teachings of Universalism in my view as stated earlier is simply repeating the same lies from the Serpent told to Eve in the garden of Eden where the Serpent told Eve you can disobey Gods' Word and not surely die (Genesis 3:1-5).

Take Care.

Thanks for the homiletics, if anything the context only emphasizes the point that the sinner may be saved in spirit through destruction of the flesh. This is exactly what occurs in the judgment, the LoF destroys the flesh, burns up the wheat, hay, chaff, stubble and dross of the old carnal man, so the new man in Christ may emerge from the fire cleansed and repentant. It really has nothing to do with the serpent's lie in the Garden, it's entirely different, because it requires 'death' and total transformation/ repentance of the sinner, subjection to Christ. I'm not sure why you insist on misrepresenting the UR position, is it because there's someone in your life you're not ready to forgive? God's not here to justify our petty hatreds, you know.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Thanks for the homiletics, if anything the context only emphasizes the point that the sinner may be saved in spirit through destruction of the flesh. This is exactly what occurs in the judgment, the LoF destroys the flesh, burns up the wheat, hay, chaff, stubble and dross of the old carnal man, so the new man in Christ may emerge from the fire cleansed and repentant. It really has nothing to do with the serpent's lie in the Garden, it's entirely different, because it requires 'death' and total transformation/ repentance of the sinner, subjection to Christ. I'm not sure why you insist on misrepresenting the UR position, is it because there's someone in your life you're not ready to forgive? God's not here to justify our petty hatreds, you know.

Did you read the post you were quoting from? The context added back in and provided for 1 Corinthians 5:5 in post # 523 linked disagrees with you.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Did you read the post you were quoting from? The context added back in and provided for 1 Corinthians 5:5 in post # 523 linked disagrees with you.

The context doesn't disagree - it confirms that the sinner (in this case the sexually immoral) can be saved, through destruction of the flesh/ carnal nature. Notice that Revelation 21:8 expressly lists the fornicator as a type who goes to the fire. Saved, as through fire? Come on man, it's all there.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The context doesn't disagree - it confirms that the sinner (in this case the sexually immoral) can be saved, through destruction of the flesh/ carnal nature. Notice that Revelation 21:8 expressly lists the fornicator as a type who goes to the fire. Saved, as through fire? Come on man, it's all there.

Actually no, The context absolutely disagrees with your claims that the wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming and the judgment. Your reading "fire" into 1 Corinthians 5. It does not exist and the context is pre-advent not post advent. I am not sure why you cannot see this as it is all shown in the context of 1 Corinthians 5:5 posted already in post # 523 linked.

 

[ozso]

Thanks for the homiletics, if anything the context only emphasizes the point that the sinner may be saved in spirit through destruction of the flesh. This is exactly what occurs in the judgment, the LoF destroys the flesh, burns up the wheat, hay, chaff, stubble and dross of the old carnal man, so the new man in Christ may emerge from the fire cleansed and repentant. It really has nothing to do with the serpent's lie in the Garden, it's entirely different, because it requires 'death' and total transformation/ repentance of the sinner, subjection to Christ. I'm not sure why you insist on misrepresenting the UR position, is it because there's someone in your life you're not ready to forgive? God's not here to justify our petty hatreds, you know.

God didn't design us to be beings of iniquity. Would it be an atrocity if God restored souls to their original design and purpose, along with restoring the earth and heavens through fire (2 Peter 3:8-13)?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Actually no, The context absolutely disagrees with your claims that the wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming and the judgment.

There you go again, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call you out. You've been corrected so many times regarding the misrepresentation that UR claims the wicked will receive eternal life, that I can only conclude you're being deliberately mischievous. You are hereby directed to write 100 times, 'UR does not claim the wicked will receive eternal life'. Perhaps it's only by rote learning that you'll mend your errant ways.

Your reading "fire" into 1 Corinthians 5. It does not exist and the context is pre-advent not post advent. I am not sure why you cannot see this as it is all shown in the context of 1 Corinthians 5:5 posted already in post # 523 linked.

1 Cor 5:5 (with or without context) teaches that the fornicator can be saved in spirit by destruction of the flesh. The mechanism of salvation is the divine fire, as in 'saved, but as by fire,' or 'purify the sons of Levi', or Gehenna fire. Perhaps Jesus will come and baptise you with fire and the spirit one of these days (it's a good thing!). Now, who is it that you really want to burn to a crisp, perhaps we can have a chat with Moses for you, see what he can arrange...

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God didn't design us to be beings of iniquity. Would it be an atrocity if God restored souls to their original design and purpose, along with restoring the earth and heavens through fire (2 Peter 3:8-13)?

What a hideous unholy decadent vision! What's wrong with the savage stinking human bbq pit, aka the orthodox family-friendly Kingdom?!

 

[rjs330]

You see, exomolgeo links to Rom 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Yes, while you are alive. Once you are dead it is too late. Jesus says not everyone you says Lord will enter the kingdom. And Paul also said in Ephesians and Gallations people that will not inherit the kingdom. Jesus gave the parable of the virgins and said the door would be shut on those who came too late. Revelations tells us that there will people people who don't get in and are cast into the Lake of Fire.

So who's lying? The answer is no one, you have misinterpreted one verse to mean everyone gets saved.

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - American Standard Version

And there are a LOT of verses and passages just like this. Paul did not contradict himself.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There you go again, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call you out. You've been corrected so many times regarding the misrepresentation that UR claims the wicked will receive eternal life, that I can only conclude you're being deliberately mischievous. You are hereby directed to write 100 times, 'UR does not claim the wicked will receive eternal life'. Perhaps it's only by rote learning that you'll mend your errant ways.

I see. Please correct me. So you no longer believe that the wicked will be saved after the judgement takes place after the second coming and the wicked do not receive eternal life after the second coming and all men will not be saved? (YES/NO).

1 Cor 5:5 (with or without context) teaches that the fornicator can be saved in spirit by destruction of the flesh. The mechanism of salvation is the divine fire, as in 'saved, but as by fire,' or 'purify the sons of Levi', or Gehenna fire. Perhaps Jesus will come and baptise you with fire and the spirit one of these days (it's a good thing!). Now, who is it that you really want to burn to a crisp, perhaps we can have a chat with Moses for you, see what he can arrange...

All you have provided here in your opinion not present in the scripture we are discussing that is pre-advent not post-advent. So this is not really adding anything to the discussion in my view as we should not try and read into the scripture what they do not say and do not teach.

Take Care.

 

[ozso]

Yes, while you are alive. Once you are dead it is too late. Jesus says not everyone you says Lord will enter the kingdom. And Paul also said in Ephesians and Gallations people that will not inherit the kingdom. Jesus gave the parable of the virgins and said the door would be shut on those who came too late. Revelations tells us that there will people people who don't get in and are cast into the Lake of Fire.

So who's lying? The answer is no one, you have misinterpreted one verse to mean everyone gets saved.

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - American Standard Version

And there are a LOT of verses and passages just like this. Paul did not contradict himself.

There's a lot more than one verse that implies universal reconciliation. Which you should know by now. You haven't moved beyond posting the same basic message over and over again. What do you think inherit the kingdom of God means? Is it that one either inherits a kingdom or they spend eternity in a torture dungeon? Can there be nothing in between those two extremes?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes, while you are alive. Once you are dead it is too late.

Not so, a person is dead in their sins and trespasses until they die in Christ, upon which they are made alive, given the fire of the spirit. Have you not experienced it? You must be born again.

Nobody who hasn't been born again, ie baptised with fire and the spirit can enter the Kingdom. That's because it takes exomolgeo, giving it up for God, casting to the wind what you think you know, who you think you are, all those false idols we've all been indoctrinated with. Once that occurs, the hand is set to the plow.

God's Kingdom is radically different, there's no friendship between the world and the table of demons. A believer can't love God and love Nasa, for instance, the two are irreconcilable.

When God says He's going to bless and save all the nations, when He sends Jesus to be the saviour of the world, when He seals His promise in holy blood, and when He gives us end-time visions of deliverance of the nations in the renewal of all things, I believe Him. Now, it may be that many find that great truth offensive (a stumbling stone to Jews and foolishness to Greeks), but so be it, God has no fellowship with the fallen ways of the world, He's intent on restoring creation to His image. He doesn't love you or me any less than He loves the hookers and tax collectors downtown.

All things are in His hands, and for Him to change the heart of a fornicator, an idolater, an adulterer, an effeminate, an abuser of themselves with men, a thief, the covetous, a drunkard, a reviler, or an extortioner is a beautiful thing. Miracles are commonplace in the Kingdom, and what's impossible for man is certainly not impossible for God.

So there's no 'time limits' on 'your salvation'. It's nothing you do, how can you talk about it like it's some sort of achievement on your part, that's self-righteousness - you have your reward. God appoints the time for salvation of all men, it's all in His hands. All things from Him, through Him and to Him. Exitus et reditus. Perhaps you should submit to Christ.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I see. Please correct me. So you no longer believe that the wicked will be saved after the judgement takes place after the second coming and the wicked do not receive eternal life after the second coming and all men will not be saved? (YES/NO).

Once the wicked are saved we are no longer wicked, we are saved. Or at least, we are on the path to being saved, and have faith that God will finish a good work He has started. Nobody gets saved who wasn't wicked, they just don't appreciate their wickedness until God opens their eyes and changes their heart. The wicked do not receive the life eternal until they are saved and repent of their wickedness. The old man of the flesh is dead, the new man in the spirit in Christ lives. There is nobody who is saved who was not formerly wicked. Is this clear?

All you have provided here in your opinion not present in the scripture we are discussing that is pre-advent not post-advent. So this is not really adding anything to the discussion in my view as we should not try and read into the scripture what they do not say and do not teach in my view.

What part of the 1 Cor 5:5 is conditional on pre- or post-advent? It's all occurring in the first generation A.D..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Once the wicked are saved we are no longer wicked, we are saved. Or at least, we are on the path to being saved, and have faith that God will finish a good work He has started. Nobody gets saved who wasn't wicked, they just don't appreciate their wickedness until God opens their eyes and changes their heart. The wicked do not receive the life eternal until they are saved and repent of their wickedness. The old man of the flesh is dead, the new man in the spirit in Christ lives. There is nobody who is saved who was not formerly wicked. Is this clear?
What part of the 1 Cor 5:5 is conditional on pre- or post-advent? It's all occurring in the first generation A.D..

I see, so after all that you do believe after all the wicked will be saved which means I was right the first time round. According to the scriptures the wicked do not receive everlasting life (John 3:36; see also the 100+ scriptures starting in the OP that disagree with you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Eternity is a long time. Endless suffering with no hope of escape. No one deserves that.

And frankly, it would only take about ten seconds of that for anyone to change their mind. So, what is the point of an eternity if not sadistic torture?

So hell makes people love God? Just a few seconds in hell and everyone will love Him? Or do you think that people who don’t love God should be admitted into heaven?

 

[BNR32FAN]

How are such things measured?
Could you have been more remorseful? (sure)
Were you remorseful enough? (who knows?)

Or perhaps they had no remorse at all and they were just trying to escape the consequences of their actions. We don’t know for sure exactly what their motivation was but God does.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He would say that he did what he did with a good reason.
And would be glad to scream at you to explain himself.
Does that mean he wasn't a tyrant?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Adolf Hitler was solving the "Jewish problem".
Does that reasoning change your view of what he did?

Your comparison doesn’t fit the situation because Hitler’s motives can’t be comparable to God’s motives. Your comparing the motives of one of the worst humans in history with God’s motives as if they were remotely similar. This just tells me that your not open minded to the possibilities of how God could be justified in His decision of either punishing people for all eternity or destroying them so I don’t see any point in discussing it any longer since neither of us seem to be able to present any evidence that will convince the other. Your position is that if God doesn’t do what you think is right then He’s a tyrant and my position is that I’m confident that whatever decision He makes is just and fair because that is His very nature.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think meeting Jesus in the afterlife will be very convincing. There will be no "unbelievers" in the afterlife.

satan and demons believe in Christ. satan worshippers believe in Christ to. The condemned in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 will also believe in Him when they stand before Him on judgement day.

 

[ozso]

So hell makes people love God? Just a few seconds in hell and everyone will love Him? Or do you think that people who don’t love God should be admitted into heaven?

That would depend on what hell is. Since according to Peter God is going to incinerate everything He created, including heaven itself, to restore everything to glory, why would that exclude human souls? God designed man to love and worship Him. The sin of this fallen world keeps man from being what he was intended to be. So why couldn't that be restored the same as everything else?