WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[rjs330]

Only those who accept Christ receive grace, hence “by grace you have been saved thru faith”. Those who don’t have faith do not have grace.

They forget that God has ordained it to be that way. His grace is limitless to those who are saved through faith. That's God's plan and how he carries it out.

 

[rjs330]

Wouldn't that mean that sin is bigger than grace?
Will the grace of God be defeated by sin?
There is a REAL problem with that plan.

No because his grace is sufficient. He just chooses to grant it to those who believe. Sin does not overcome grace. Grace overcomes sin. But God applies that grace to those who believe.

Faith is the key that unlocks the grace. Faith in Christ. It's what God REQUIRES.

 

[rjs330]

That is an inarguable point. It would be impossible for them to no longer believe in Jesus when he's standing in front of them in heaven.

Right, they will see Him for who he is. It will be undeniable. But they won't be able to say, "I believe now so let me in!". It's too late then.

 

[rjs330]

The Bible tells us that every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

How can you posit that some will not "truly" repent? Or that they "would only continue to bring sin into heaven"?

That's cause they won't get into heaven.

 

[rjs330]

Eternity is a long time. Endless suffering with no hope of escape. No one deserves that.

They don't? How do you know that?

You are not God with all knowledge, understanding holiness and righteousness.

We do not know better than God.

 

[ozso]

Right, they will see Him for who he is. It will be undeniable. But they won't be able to say, "I believe now so let me in!". It's too late then.

Do you have a scripture version of that statement?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I have addressed this many times. This is not a UR salvation verse. To claim so, makes Christ a contradictory Lord. Because he said not everyone who calls him Lord will be received into the kingdom. So no this not a everyone gets saved verse. It's that everyone will one day see Christ as who he is and they won't be able to deny the fact that he is Lord.

Um, no. You shouldn't rely on your misinterpretation of one verse to inform your misinterpretation of another. That's how heresies and blasphemies get started.

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess. This is not a verse that speaks of ppl being forced to their knees to engage in perfunctory genuflection. That is not true confession. God deals with truth, not falsehood. 'Exomolgeo' is the term, free and enthusiastic confession.

Now, re Mt 7:26, why do you assume that Jesus is in effect saying 'Go to hell!' to those believers who he sends 'to the fire prepared for the devil and his angels'? That's a logical fallacy called 'assuming the consequent'. You're assuming that the eternal fire equates to eternal punishment, it's some kind of hideous human bbq pit or gas oven job, where human flesh is constantly reconstituted only to be flayed from the bones. What a nasty image and a slur on God's holy name.

This is the same error you make in relation to Rev 21:8. God isn't giving a false promise in Rev 21:5, He's not promising to make all things new while simultaneously destroying 90% of humanity. That would be the height of evil and hypocrisy. Clearly the 'making new' includes the folks who are thrown into the LoF. So the function of the LoF is to effect this renewal. This is verified by Rev 21:24-26 where the nations and kings of the earth emerge repentant to worship and receive the healing leaves of life in Rev 22:2.

Your interpretation reads down 'all things' and at best treats God like He's 'just saying stuff'. Well, I happen to take His word seriously and give it full value, because He's God, His word is faithful and true, and His Salvation is the Omega Plan. UR doesn't need to make excuses for the immensity of God's universal covenants and promises, rather we boast in them and take refuge in them.

 

[Saint Steven]

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess. This is not a verse that speaks of ppl being forced to their knees to engage in perfunctory genuflection. That is not true confession. God deals with truth, not falsehood. 'Exomolgeo' is the term, free and enthusiastic confession.

That's right.
Here's the full definition below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[ozso]

Um, no. You shouldn't rely on your misinterpretation of one verse to inform your misinterpretation of another. That's how heresies and blasphemies get started.

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess. This is not a verse that speaks of ppl being forced to their knees to engage in perfunctory genuflection. That is not true confession. God deals with truth, not falsehood. 'Exomolgeo' is the term, free and enthusiastic confession.

Now, re Mt 7:26, why do you assume that Jesus is in effect saying 'Go to hell!' to those believers who he sends 'to the fire prepared for the devil and his angels'? That's a logical fallacy called 'assuming the consequent'. You're assuming that the eternal fire equates to eternal punishment, it's some kind of hideous human bbq pit or gas oven job, where human flesh is constantly reconstituted only to be flayed from the bones. What a nasty image and a slur on God's holy name.

This is the same error you make in relation to Rev 21:8. God isn't giving a false promise in Rev 21:5, He's not promising to make all things new while simultaneously destroying 90% of humanity. That would be the height of evil and hypocrisy. Clearly the 'making new' includes the folks who are thrown into the LoF. So the function of the LoF is to effect this renewal. This is verified by Rev 21:24-26 where the nations and kings of the earth emerge repentant to worship and receive the healing leaves of life in Rev 22:2.

Your interpretation reads down 'all things' and at best treats God like He's 'just saying stuff'. Well, I happen to take His word seriously and give it full value, because He's God, His word is faithful and true, and His Salvation is the Omega Plan. UR doesn't need to make excuses for the immensity of God's universal covenants and promises, rather we boast in them and take refuge in them.

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells." 2 Peter 3:8-13

 

[rjs330]

How are such things measured?
Could you have been more remorseful? (sure)
Were you remorseful enough? (who knows?)

God knows if we are repentant and have faith. Remember, without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.

True repentance is not some emotional boo hoo experience. It is an acknowledgement of our wrong doing, our sin and a turning away from it.

God judges the heart, not just the action.

 

[rjs330]

Do you have a scripture version of that statement?

I don't understand what you are asking. The Phillipians verse is then verse that tells us everyone will acknowledge Christ as Lord. It does not mean people are saved because they did that. Jesus says that himself. So I'm not sure I understand what you are asking.

 

[rjs330]

Um, no. You shouldn't rely on your misinterpretation of one verse to inform your misinterpretation of another. That's how heresies and blasphemies get started.

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess. This is not a verse that speaks of ppl being forced to their knees to engage in perfunctory genuflection. That is not true confession. God deals with truth, not falsehood. 'Exomolgeo' is the term, free and enthusiastic confession.

Now, re Mt 7:26, why do you assume that Jesus is in effect saying 'Go to hell!' to those believers who he sends 'to the fire prepared for the devil and his angels'? That's a logical fallacy called 'assuming the consequent'. You're assuming that the eternal fire equates to eternal punishment, it's some kind of hideous human bbq pit or gas oven job, where human flesh is constantly reconstituted only to be flayed from the bones. What a nasty image and a slur on God's holy name.

This is the same error you make in relation to Rev 21:8. God isn't giving a false promise in Rev 21:5, He's not promising to make all things new while simultaneously destroying 90% of humanity. That would be the height of evil and hypocrisy. Clearly the 'making new' includes the folks who are thrown into the LoF. So the function of the LoF is to effect this renewal. This is verified by Rev 21:24-26 where the nations and kings of the earth emerge repentant to worship and receive the healing leaves of life in Rev 22:2.

Your interpretation reads down 'all things' and at best treats God like He's 'just saying stuff'. Well, I happen to take His word seriously and give it full value, because He's God, His word is faithful and true, and His Salvation is the Omega Plan. UR doesn't need to make excuses for the immensity of God's universal covenants and promises, rather we boast in them and take refuge in them.

Well, it appears you refuse to acknowledge what the scripture teaches. Since scripture does not contradict itself, God has made it clear as to what he means. I think he did that so people like you won't misunderstand. But you are so locked into you own position that you refuse to see it.

First if all Philippians does not say people are FORCED to acknowledge Christ as Lord. Since they acknowledge it they have to know who he is. A good example is we recognize the authority and position of the President. When we meet the president we acknowledge that he is the president. That doesn't mean we put our complete faith in the person. But we do know who he is. It's a small example, but the application is there. I fully acknowledge in that Biden is president, but do I trust and put my faith in him to lead us? Nope.

Take a long hard look at what Christ says in Matthew.

Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof. - Matthew 7:13-14,21-27 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:13-14, Matthew 7:21-27 - American Standard Version

He tells them broad is the way to destruction, he tells them that even people who call him Lord will be sent away as WORKERS OF INIQUITY and he never knew them. He says there are those who hear his words and yet build on sand anyway and fall greatly.

You continually claim blasphemy and yet it's what Christ said. It appears that you do not want to listen to him.

Take a look again at the context of Revelation.

And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it.And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it:and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life. - Revelation 21:23-27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:23-27 - American Standard Version

I don't know who specifically the kings of the earth are. But it certainly doesn't say they come out of the Lake of Fire. Only those whose names are written in the Lambs Book get in. Those that make abomination and lie do NOT get in. Therefore it IS clear that these kings names are written in the book and they do not make abomination and a lie. They are believers. They are not those who are cast into the Lake of Fire.

You are simply reading into scripture things that are not there.

And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie. - Revelation 22:10-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 22:10-15 - American Standard Version

Even in the last chapter there are those that are NOT in the kingdom.

God renders each man according to his work and only those who have washed their robes are in. The filthy and wicked are not.

UR is a false doctrine and is not supported by scripture.

 

[ozso]

I don't understand what you are asking. The Phillipians verse is then verse that tells us everyone will acknowledge Christ as Lord. It does not mean people are saved because they did that. Jesus says that himself. So I'm not sure I understand what you are asking.

I'm asking if the Bible says: But they won't be able to say, "I believe now so let me in!". It's too late then.

 

[ozso]

I don't think that's a Pentecostal belief is it?

Cessationism says the Pentecostal belief is false.

 

[ozso]

Well, it appears you refuse to acknowledge what the scripture teaches. Since scripture does not contradict itself, God has made it clear as to what he means. I think he did that so people like you won't misunderstand. But you are so locked into you own position that you refuse to see it.

First if all Philippians does not say people are FORCED to acknowledge Christ as Lord. Since they acknowledge it they have to know who he is. A good example is we recognize the authority and position of the President. When we meet the president we acknowledge that he is the president. That doesn't mean we put our complete faith in the person. But we do know who he is. It's a small example, but the application is there. I fully acknowledge in that Biden is president, but do I trust and put my faith in him to lead us? Nope.

Take a long hard look at what Christ says in Matthew.

Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof. - Matthew 7:13-14,21-27 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:13-14, Matthew 7:21-27 - American Standard Version

He tells them broad is the way to destruction, he tells them that even people who call him Lord will be sent away as WORKERS OF INIQUITY and he never knew them. He says there are those who hear his words and yet build on sand anyway and fall greatly.

You continually claim blasphemy and yet it's what Christ said. It appears that you do not want to listen to him.

Take a look again at the context of Revelation.

And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it.And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it:and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life. - Revelation 21:23-27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:23-27 - American Standard Version

I don't know who specifically the kings of the earth are. But it certainly doesn't say they come out of the Lake of Fire. Only those whose names are written in the Lambs Book get in. Those that make abomination and lie do NOT get in. Therefore it IS clear that these kings names are written in the book and they do not make abomination and a lie. They are believers. They are not those who are cast into the Lake of Fire.

You are simply reading into scripture things that are not there.

And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie. - Revelation 22:10-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 22:10-15 - American Standard Version

Even in the last chapter there are those that are NOT in the kingdom.

God renders each man according to his work and only those who have washed their robes are in. The filthy and wicked are not.

UR is a false doctrine and is not supported by scripture.

That was all basically a scripted message. I've read it pretty much verbatim from others. I don't think you've gotten to the point where you can see UR from the UR perspective, but rather keep putting up an oft-repeated wall. The SDA use it often to describe Christians who don't keep the Saturday sabbath.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Do you have a scripture version of that statement?

Yes there is over 100+ scriptures starting here linked.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That was all basically a scripted message. I've read it pretty much verbatim from others. I don't think you've gotten to the point where you can see UR from the UR perspective, but rather keep putting up an oft-repeated wall. The SDA use it often to describe Christians who don't keep the Saturday sabbath.

Well I do not think that statement is a very truthful one to be honest. There is no scripture anywhere in the bible that teaches that the unbelieving wicked that continue in known unrepentant sin will receive eternal life after the second coming. The teachings of Universalism that we can disobey God's Word and receive everlasting life after the second coming is the same lie spoken to Eve in the garden of Eden that you can disobey Gods' Word and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and not surely die from Genesis 3:1-5. I am not sure why some do not see this but it is plain as day according to the scriptures. (100+ scriptures starting here linked)

Take Care.

 

[Saint Steven]

That was all basically a scripted message. I've read it pretty much verbatim from others. I don't think you've gotten to the point where you can see UR from the UR perspective, but rather keep putting up an oft-repeated wall. The SDA use it often to describe Christians who don't keep the Saturday sabbath.

Easy to tell actual typing from copy/paste.

Check the time stamps against the number of words to determine the words per minute speed. That's telling.

Number of words is easy to estimate. Count the words in an average line and multiply by the number of lines.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

First if all Philippians does not say people are FORCED to acknowledge Christ as Lord. Since they acknowledge it they have to know who he is. A good example is we recognize the authority and position of the President. When we meet the president we acknowledge that he is the president. That doesn't mean we put our complete faith in the person. But we do know who he is. It's a small example, but the application is there. I fully acknowledge in that Biden is president, but do I trust and put my faith in him to lead us? Nope.

That is not 'exomolgeo'. Further, many people do not accept Biden (or any given President) as legitimate. Your analogy fails because it denudes the great promise of God. You see, exomolgeo links to Rom 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So you see how tight this is, the HS has made it very clear that the conditions for salvation are precisely those that God has promised will be achieved for all the nations. Sorry, but there's just no design-around for this.

Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof. - Matthew 7:13-14,21-27 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:13-14, Matthew 7:21-27 - American Standard Version

He tells them broad is the way to destruction, he tells them that even people who call him Lord will be sent away as WORKERS OF INIQUITY and he never knew them. He says there are those who hear his words and yet build on sand anyway and fall greatly.

That's right, a calamitous fall of the house built on sand. But nothing about eternal torment. In fact, we can see maybe a little further with Paul talking about the same thing:

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor 3:12-15)

Wood, hay and stubble/ house built on sand. Work burned up/ house demolished. Saved, but so as by fire. The fire saves but destroys the dross. Perhaps that's what is meant by 'he who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death' in Rev 2:11. See how it all works together for the good?

I don't know who specifically the kings of the earth are. But it certainly doesn't say they come out of the Lake of Fire. Only those whose names are written in the Lambs Book get in. Those that make abomination and lie do NOT get in. Therefore it IS clear that these kings names are written in the book and they do not make abomination and a lie. They are believers. They are not those who are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The nations and kings of the earth are the traditional enemies of the gospel. This culminates in the Battle of Armageddon, which we see the kings mentioned in Revelation 16:16, and again in Revelation 19:19. So somehow, they've gone from being arch-enemies of Christ, to being slain with the sword from his mouth in Revelation 19:21. Then the 1,000 years, then the release of Satan who promptly deceives the nations and leads them into battle against Jerusalem, then they're struck by lightning from heaven, then the devil and his bad boys are taken out, then the Great White Throne Judgment occurs.

So there's a resurrection and a judgment for the kings of the earth and the nations, formerly at enmity with Christ and under the sway of the evil one, and the result is they repent and come to worship God and receive healing. What happens in the interim? The Lake of Fire, which gives them life by destroying the sin, burning up the unbelief.

God renders each man according to his work and only those who have washed their robes are in. The filthy and wicked are not.

Why do UR detractors always insist on this strawman argument? Do you think you can make yourself righteous and pure? It occurs 'Not by might, nor by power, but by God's spirit'.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes there is over 100+ scriptures starting here linked.

So why no answer to the 1 Cor 5:5 teaching: deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Does the idea of destruction of flesh as a precondition to salvation of the spirit not fit with your view that destruction is total and the end of the line? How do you account for the language used by Paul in this verse? Why should the teaching not be applied to your hyper-literal reading of these 'destruction' scriptures, particularly when the revelation of Jesus Christ is the triumph of God's Salvation?