WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[Saint Steven]

Progressive is another term used for liberal christianity, which is sexually minded like the gnostics, Ultimate Reconciliation is inevitably liberal/generous in focus.

Is that because conservatives are generally an unmerciful lot? - lol
It should be a conservative value. Look at all that is conserved.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Is that because conservatives are generally an unmerciful lot? - lol
It should be a conservative value. Look at all that is conserved.

Words are funny that way, in another generation our innocent conversation will be full of innuendo that we did not intend.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

From the view of UR, it is what is being destroyed that is the question. The wood, hay and stubble? Or the person? WWJD?

What is being destroyed is the work of false teachers and their teachings and those who believe them in 1 Corinthians 3:1-15. Let's look at the scriptures and their contexts...

1 Corinthians 3:1-15
v1. Paul talking to the Corinthians as babes in Christ
v2. The Corinthians believers only able to handle the milk of the Word of God
v3. The Corinthians believers being still carnal with envying strife and divisions
v4. They are not united but carnal some saying they are of Apollos or Paul
v5. Who brings us God's Word is not important they are just ministers of the Word
v6. Paul has planted the Word and Apollos watered but God grows the increase
v7. Those who plant and those who water are not importance but God who grows the plant
v8. Those who plant and water are one and every man receives his own reward from his labor
v9. We are laborers together with God and together we are all God's building (the Church)
v10. Paul laying the foundation and another builds on this foundation.
v11. No other foundation can be made accept for Jesus Christ (the head of the body)
v12. Laborers in the word build on the church gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble
v13. Everyone's work of will be tested and revealed by fire what sort it is.
v14. After it is tried with fire if our work abides we shall receive a reward
v15. If any mans work is burned he will suffer loss but he will be saved yet so by fire.

..............

Note: It makes a great deal of difference, how a man builds even on the sure foundation which is Christ *1 Corinthians 3:11. It is evident from Paul’s statement, “ye are God’s building,” that the gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and stubble, “that may be built upon the true foundation, indicate different classes of people in the church of God. The gold, silver, and precious stones are the good, and those whom the fire cannot harm; while the wood, hay, and stubble represent those who will finally be cast into the fire and consumed.

The day of Judgment will reveal the characters of all, so that “every man’s work shall be made manifest.” “The fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.” This does not mean that every man will have to pass through purgatory, nor does it have the slightest reference to such a place; the meaning is brought out in verses 14 and 15, where it is declared that some will abide, and some will be burned. And so the class of work that has been done by the ministers of the word of God will be revealed by fire at the second coming.

That is for example if we liken someone who builds the gospel doctrine as a house (people) made of wood, hay and stubble and we spend all our time to build this house only to see it burned down by fire after it is finished we will indeed suffer loss of those we labored, for all eternity. We are that house in what we believe and follow.

Back to the context. The Corinthians believers had the foundation of Christ and Him crucified for their sins, already given them by Paul or Apollos but they were babes in Christ and Gods' Word and were not unified or united but carnal not understanding the Word of God. In 1 Corinthians 3:15 Paul does not take away all hope of salvation from the unskillful and foolish builders, who are babes that hold fast the foundation, of Christ. However, he adds an exception, that they must nonetheless suffer this trial of their work, and also abide the loss of their vain labors. The contexts you leave out here are important. We are the gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble in what we believe and follow according to the scriptures will either abide or be burned up. The scriptures here are not saying everyone will be saved and no one will be lost. That interpretation of the scriptures is not biblical and disagrees with the rest of the bible (e.g. see scripture examples in the OP).

Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's generous.
He did give us a free will and an impossible standard, right?
Sounds like we were set-up to fail. But don't blame God?

What is impossible for God? (Philippians 4:13; Matthew 17:20; Matthew 19:16; Mark 10:27 etc etc). According to the scriptures God's salvation is from sin not to continue practicing sin *1 John 3:6-9. If we continue in known unrepentant sin we will die according to the scriptures (see Romans 6:1-23; Hebrews 10:26-31; Romans 6:16; Romans 6:23; Romans 8:13 etc etc..)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I have an increasing frustration with threads such as this. Posters argue back and forth, touting this verse as proof of this or another verse as proof of that. It is not the best approach. There are versions such as the KJV which make "Hell" seem to be a reality. There are versions such as the Young's Literal, and many others, which do not mention "Hell" at all. So, instead of arguing interpretation, doctrine and dogma, we should be discussing which Bible version is the best translation, with the most honest approach. Too many versions are translated according to pre-determined theology...but I ask you all: Should not an honest translation come first, and only then the theology? At the very least, we should state what version we are quoting from, as the Bible is not monolithic.

If God's Word is the very standard of truth and error as shown in the scriptures and revealed by the Spirit of God in John 17:17; John 6:63 and Romans 3:4. Why would you want to separate the conversation of the truth of God's Word from the Word which defines what God's truth is? Sounds like a recipe to lead one away from the truth and God's Word in my opinion.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Jesus said "I am the truth"

Jesus said to the Father "Your word is truth"

Jesus also said that "The truth will set you free"

Minimizing the truth to words on a page (only) kind of takes away from what Jesus did for us.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Right. Blame the victims. I've heard that one before. Do you really think anyone knowingly chooses hell?

Sure they do. They do it everyday by not believing and following Gods' Word and rejecting the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Though I do not believe the Roman Catholic doctrine of Hell is biblical according to the scriptures.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Jesus said "I am the truth"

Jesus said to the Father "Your word is truth"

Jesus also said that "The truth will set you free"

Minimizing the truth to words on a page (only) kind of takes away from what Jesus did for us.

Jesus is also the living Word of God that gave us the written Word of God right (John 1:1-4; 14)?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Jesus is also the living Word of God that gave us the written Word of God right (John 1:1-4; 14)?

Yes, the word in the beginning, the voice of God who was walking in the garden during the cool of the day. The incarnation of the voice of God that spoke creation into existence.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, the word in the beginning, the voice of God who was walking in the garden during the cool of the day. The incarnation of the voice of God that spoke creation into existence.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Matthew 4:4 Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Matthew 4:4 Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The LORD is our righteousness.’ (Jeremiah 23:6)
I am the bread of life. (John 6:35)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The LORD is our righteousness.’ (Jeremiah 23:6) I am the bread of life. (John 6:35)

Indeed who is Israel and Judah in the new covenant (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34)?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Indeed who is Israel and Judah in the new covenant (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34)?

Judah Benjamin is the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

Israel are the various post reformation groups.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Judah Benjamin is the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Israel are the various post reformation groups.

Where do you get that out of the scriptures?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Where do you get that out of the scriptures?

I read the histories of israel and transposed them over church history.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I read the histories of israel and transposed them over church history.

According to the scriptures God's Israel in the new covenant is simply all those who believe and follow God's Word and not necessarily a Church denomination. Israel in the new covenant is no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but all those who are born again through faith in God's new covenant promise (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

 

[Gregory Thompson]

According to the scriptures God's Israel in the new covenant is simply all those who believe and follow God's Word. Israel in the new covenant is no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but all those who are born again through faith in God's new covenant promise (Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

The turning point towards following the histories was when the church councils cursed those who believed differently, mirroring the curses in deuteronomy regarding those who don't follow the law.

It created a mirrored scenario, that needs to reach the end of the story before the program ends.

 

[klutedavid]

I am sorry dear friend that it is exactly what the scriptures say. Here they all are verbatim including the supporting context so there is no confusion...

Romans 3:9-20
[9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before PROVED BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10, As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE:
[11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], THEY ARE ALL GONE OUT OF THE WAY, THEY ARE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE THAT DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE.
[13], Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHAT THINGS SOEVER THE LAW SAID, IT SAID TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW: THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.
[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

As shown above, "through the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20). Anyone (both Jews and gentiles) who sin regardless if they know the law or not are under the laws condemnation and guilt according to Romans 3:9 to Romans 3:19. For example Romans 3:9 says [9], "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jew and Gentiles that they are all under sin" and again in Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. The above scriptures show all the world stands under the law's condemnation because all have sinned.

Here let's add back the context you left out as v14 does not delete Romans 2:12-13. Once again the context of Romans 2 is Jew and Gentiles are all under sin as shown above already in Romans 3:9-20.
Romans 2:12-13 [12], FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED WITHOUT LAW SHALL ALSO PERISH WITHOUT LAW: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;[13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

No. I said no such thing. As posted earlier Gods' Word (not my words) says that anyone who sins which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments or not believing and following Gods' Word is "under the law" standing guilty before God of breaking the law (see Romans 3:9-20 posted above verbatim). They are God's Word posted verbatim not my words that you argue against here with your words that are not Gods Word. So who should I believe you or God? I know who I believe and it is not you dear friend. No one ever said Gentile unbelievers ever had God's laws this is a strawman argument no one has ever made so I will leave you to argue that one with yourself. All that was posted to you was that all, both believers and unbelievers according to Romans 3:9-19 are "under the law" guilty before God of breaking the law according to Romans 3:19 which are Gods' Words not my words. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. That would be between you and God.

Hope this is helpful.

PS. I did also notice you did not answer my original question to you (see post # 67 linked).

Your still making the same mistake, over and over, again.

Jews and Gentiles are under the law of sin and death (Romans 3:9-10).

The Jews had the law and Gentiles did not have the law (Romans 2:14).

The Gentiles never had the ten commandments and that is a fact.

The Gentiles never knew the God of the Old Testament.

Gentiles were sinning, yes. But were not breaking the ten commandments, because they were not in covenant with God to obey that law. Where there is no law there is no violation of that law.

Romans 4:15
For the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

The text never says the 'ten commandments', the text always states 'the law'.

That is important because the Gentiles were not members of the old covenant.

The law and the prophets were unknown to the Gentiles, fact.

You cannot break a law you never were given. Does that mean the Gentiles were not sinners?

Well that is what Romans 3:9-19 is telling us. The Gentiles behavior was evil and identical to the Jews. Not having the law does not make one exempt from judgement.

All the law does is define what sin is, it grants the knowledge of sin. The law will not make you righteous.

 

[Lazarus Short]

If God's Word is the very standard of truth and error as shown in the scriptures and revealed by the Spirit of God in John 17:17; John 6:63 and Romans 3:4. Why would you want to separate the conversation of the truth of God's Word from the Word which defines what God's truth is? Sounds like a recipe to lead one away from the truth and God's Word in my opinion.

Your response tells me you did not understand a word I said. I'm going to guess that you only consider one version to be the Word of God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Your still making the same mistake, over and over, again.

Jews and Gentiles are under the law of sin and death (Romans 3:9-10).

The Jews had the law and Gentiles did not have the law (Romans 2:14).

The Gentiles never had the ten commandments and that is a fact.

The Gentiles never knew the God of the Old Testament.

Gentiles were sinning, yes. But were not breaking the ten commandments, because they were not in covenant with God to obey that law. Where there is no law there is no violation of that law.

Romans 4:15
For the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

The text never says the 'ten commandments', the text always states 'the law'.

That is important because the Gentiles were not members of the old covenant.

The law and the prophets were unknown to the Gentiles, fact.

You cannot break a law you never were given. Does that mean the Gentiles were not sinners?

Well that is what Romans 3:9-19 is telling us. The Gentiles behavior was evil and identical to the Jews. Not having the law does not make one exempt from judgement.

All the law does is define what sin is, it grants the knowledge of sin. The law will not make you righteous.

Sorry David, I respectfully disagree. Did you read the post you are quoting from as you did not address anything in the post you are responding to. Post # 68 linked shows the context you are leaving out of your interpretation of the scriptures and reveals why your interpretation of the scripture are in error. All you have done here in this post is to repeat yourself without addressing the post you are quoting from. If you disagree please address the post and the scriptures provided in them. The discussion was in reference to Romans 3:19 and being "under the law" standing guilty before God of sin. Supporting context was also provided from Romans 2:12-13 and Romans 3:9-20.

Romans 4:15 in isolation to context does not support your view either. Romans 2 and Romans 3 which is context to Romans 4 shows bother Jews and Gentiles are all under sin (broken Gods' law) and even those who have sinned without law shall also perish without law (see Romans 2:12-13 and Romans 3:9-19) and that all the world stands guilty before God under the law standing guilty before God of sin in Romans 3:19. Romans 4:1-13 continues the argument here showing that no one is made righteous before God by keeping the law because context has already shown all of sinned in breaking the law in Romans 2 and Romans 3.

The argument Paul then uses in Romans 4:14 goes on and shows that if those who are of the works of the law (context Romans 4:1-13) are the heirs faith is made of none effect (because all have sinned and are sinners) and the promise of God's salvation and forgiveness is of none effect (Romans 4:14). Romans 4:15 builds on the context outlined above and says "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." This agrees with Paul's argument in context to Romans 4:13 where he is stating that "the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." This of course agreeing in Romans 4:16
[16], Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all."

As shown above once context is added back in, Romans 4:15 is not saying there is no more law. It is saying that righteousness is not from the works of the law because all have sinned and that righteousness is by faith in the promises of God. The law simply gives us a knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20 and the wages of sin (wrath - Romans 4:15) is death *Romans 6:23. Romans 4:15 is only showing what Paul wrote earlier in Romans 3:20 for through the law is the knowledge of sin and without the law we have no knowledge of what sin is. This of course disagrees with your teachings that God's law is abolished which is not biblical according to the scriptures.

Hope this is helpful.