WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

Neogaia777

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Sounds like a Damnationist bias in the translation. Who should we blame that on?
This one is found in the Bible too. (lots more where that came from - the Bible)

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
You have to choose to be "in Christ", but your right, about the whole "game" thing, I just think it would be too much, and maybe not worth enough for either one of us maybe, etc...?

Anyway, Peace

God Bless!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Is it loving to incinerate your enemies? What did Jesus teach us was godly behavior toward our enemies?

Matthew 5:4348
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Sin does not come from God, God never created us to sin, but loved us so much He gave us free will. Sin is what separated us from our Savior. We all have choices- we can keep God's laws or sin. That doesn't mean when you stumble Jesus will not forgive us.

In order to have peace, love and live the way God intended (sinless) Jesus sacrificed Himself so our sins could be forgiven. Jesus is giving us a second chance! Sin and sinners must be destroyed but this is not God's decision, it is up to each and every individual decision to make. You are either with God or against Him- those are our only two choices. Mathew 12:30 When we choose God, we obey God's Words and follow in the footsteps of our Savior Jesus as He was our perfect example.
 
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Saint Steven

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You have to choose to be "in Christ", but your right, about the whole "game" thing, I just think it would be too much, and maybe not worth enough for either one of us maybe, etc...?

Anyway, Peace

God Bless!
Here's a great explanation of that verse from one of our beloved forum members. @public hermit

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by Public Hermit

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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Saint Steven

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Sin does not come from God, God never created us to sin...
That's generous.
He did give us a free will and an impossible standard, right?
Sounds like we were set-up to fail. But don't blame God?
 
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Neogaia777

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Here's a great explanation of that verse from one of our beloved forum members. @public hermit

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by Public Hermit

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
I could pick apart just this one verse a lot further and in many different ways, etc, (and also what you just said or quoted also, etc) but I really don't feel like doing that with all verses in the Bible into eternity, because that is probably how long it will take, and it basically goes back to what I just said in post #81 again maybe, the latter part of post #81 anyway maybe, etc...

You believe what you believe and I don't see that ever changing, and it's probably the same for me also, so maybe we should just agree to disagree and carry on, etc...

Peace.

God Bless!
 
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public hermit

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From the view of UR, it is what is being destroyed that is the question. The wood, hay and stubble? Or the person? WWJD?

I'm with you. That seems more in line with God's love nature, i.e. to preserve the good that has been created, removing that which cannot persist.

I do wonder if there is a sense in which the "person" can be destroyed. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, the fire of divine love removes from the person all that is contrary to God. If someone's identity is so tied up in that which is contrary to God, what is left that is recognizable to that person? If I have immersed myself in hatred, selfishness, and lies wouldn't it be hell to expeience the removal of who I thought I was? I don't know. I don't want to know, lol.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I have an increasing frustration with threads such as this. Posters argue back and forth, touting this verse as proof of this or another verse as proof of that. It is not the best approach.

There are versions such as the KJV which make "Hell" seem to be a reality.

There are versions such as the Young's Literal, and many others, which do not mention "Hell" at all.

So, instead of arguing interpretation, doctrine and dogma, we should be discussing which Bible version is the best translation, with the most honest approach. Too many versions are translated according to pre-determined theology...but I ask you all: Should not an honest translation come first, and only then the theology?

At the very least, we should state what version we are quoting from, as the Bible is not monolithic.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That's generous.
He did give us a free will and an impossible standard, right?
Sounds like we were set-up to fail. But don't blame God?

I don't believe that but you're welcome to believe want you like.

We are taught the majority will find the path to destruction by their own choices. When you choose your will over God's will you are choosing the path you want to take.

For those who choose God's will over their own, Jesus provides the Holy Spirit so we are not set up to fail. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32

We have a very forgiving and merciful Savior and what He asks in return compared to what He gave us, is very little.
 
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Saint Steven

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I do wonder if there is a sense in which the "person" can be destroyed. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, the fire of divine love removes from the person all that is contrary to God. If someone's identity is so tied up in that which is contrary to God, what is left that is recognizable to that person? If I have immersed myself in hatred, selfishness, and lies wouldn't it be hell to expeience the removal of who I thought I was? I don't know. I don't want to know, lol.
Yes. We even frame things that way in our language. Especially in reference to something that had a very emotional impact. "That movie was so good. It just destroyed me." And Jesus description as "weeping" and "gnashing of teeth" certainly sounds like an emotional response to something painful. Be it physical or emotional. The "person " could be "destroyed" in a sense as a complete reset. The identity of the soul still intact, but completely restored to manufacturer's specs. - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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We are taught the majority will find the path to destruction by their own choices.
Right. Blame the victims. I've heard that one before.

Do you really think anyone knowingly chooses hell?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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All three views are biblical and contradictory. Not fair to claim any of them are a heresy. IMHO

Or, if we want to blame anyone, blame those who gave us a Bible translation with a Damnationist bias.

All three views (Damnationism, Annihilationism and Universalism) were common doctrines in the early church. In fact, Universalism was the leading view. Four of the six theology schools preferred it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
Apparently Damnationist is the only school of thought that isn't a heresy. UR and Annihilationism are similar in a way under the premise that the suffering will not be eternal, one takes it to mean all offending creations will be incinerated, and the other takes it to mean God separates them from sin and gives them a fresh start.

In the end, it's all up to God what he wants to do, and since the other eschatological schools (this also speaks of what happens at the end also, just another aspect) cannot find agreement due to only God having the answer - I don't expect a conclusive argument emerging any time soon.
 
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Saint Steven

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Apparently Damnationist is the only school of thought that isn't a heresy.
Right. That is the majority position currently. (making other views heresy? Probably what you meant) But UR is gaining a lot of traction. As Progressive Christianity grows, so will the acceptance of UR.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Right. Blame the victims. I've heard that one before.

Do you really think anyone knowingly chooses hell?

We apparently have a very different definition of what "victim" means.

The dictionary's definition of victim is:

a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.
"victims of domestic violence" ·
sufferer · injured party · casualty · injured person · wounded person · dead person · fatality · loss · loser
  • a person who is tricked or duped.

Sinning is a choice. Just like I am sure the ones who commit crimes do not want to go to jail, but that is a consequence of their actions.

Jesus said all things are possible through Christ Matthew 19:26 Everyone can turn from sin, repent and ask Jesus for a new heart. In return Jesus provides us a Helper for those who want to obey God. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32

We are told to be doers of God's Word, not just hearers.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. James 1:22

The bible teaches us to turn and repent from sin. People who choose their will over God's choose sorcerers sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie in contrast to 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

from Revelations 22:14-15
 
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Saint Steven

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We apparently have a very different definition of what "victim" means.

The dictionary's definition of victim is:

a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.
"victims of domestic violence" ·
sufferer · injured party · casualty · injured person · wounded person · dead person · fatality · loss · loser
  • a person who is tricked or duped.

Sinning is a choice. Just like I am sure the ones who commit crimes do not want to go to jail, but that is a consequence of their actions.

We are told to be doers of God's Word, not just hearers.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. James 1:22

The bible teaches us to turn and repent from sin. People who choose their will over God's choose
sorcerers sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie in contrast to 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

from Revelations 22:14-15
I hope this isn't work for you...

I am referring to the countless billions that the standard view says are predestined to hell. Those who don't "find" the narrow gate (as opposed to those who were drawn there and elected) and those who have never so much as heard the name of Christ.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I hope this isn't work for you...

I am referring to the countless billions that the standard view says are predestined to hell. Those who don't "find" the narrow gate (as opposed to those who were drawn there and elected) and those who have never so much as heard the name of Christ.
Sharing God's Word is not work. Jesus told us it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

No one is predestined to hell which is different than God being all-knowing. God judges us based on our knowledge Acts 17:29-30 so if someone has not heard about God, like in the dark ages or some places today like China He will wink at certain sins. We have a fair and righteous Savior who will judge us righteously.

If you read scripture, in the end, God's Word will be preached to the World Matthew 24:14 , which is happening now. Jesus is not going to come until everyone chooses- Him and eternal life or sin (selfishness) and death. God never lets go of us, we let go of Him by the choices we make.

I do have to run for now, but its been nice chatting and Happy Sabbath.

God bless
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Is it loving to incinerate your enemies? What did Jesus teach us was godly behavior toward our enemies?

The trouble with the false teachings of Universalism is that it tries to separate Gods love and mercy from Gods justice and judgement which is not biblical. It is only in God's justice and judgement for sin that we truly see Gods' love and mercy for all mankind. Here we see God sending His only begotten son as God's sacrifice paying the penalty for the sins of the world so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life *John 3:16. If there was no penalty for sin and everyone could be simply tortured in a lake and fire and forced into repentance to believing and following God out of pain and fear then Jesus would not have to have come into the world to die for our sins. Therefore Universalism makes a mockery of the death of Gods' dear son and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of Gods' grace *Hebrews 10:26-31. Is that the loving God Universalism serves, to torture all those who do not accept the free gift of God's gospel invitation open to all who believe but make a mockery of the Word of God?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Right. That is the majority position currently. (making other views heresy? Probably what you meant) But UR is gaining a lot of traction. As Progressive Christianity grows, so will the acceptance of UR.
Hard to say, since progressive christianity is also sexually minded, it might go the way of the gnostics and just fade into obscurity once the culture changes too much.
 
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Saint Steven

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Hard to say, since progressive christianity is also sexually minded, it might go the way of the gnostics and just fade into obscurity once the culture changes too much.
What part of the term "progressive" don't you understand? - lol
 
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Gregory Thompson

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What part of the term "progressive" don't you understand? - lol
Progressive is another term used for liberal christianity, which is sexually minded like the gnostics, Ultimate Reconciliation is inevitably liberal/generous in focus.
 
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