WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[Shrewd Manager]

Got to wonder about folks who think it's good news that most ppl get tortured forever or burnt to a crisp, and bad news if everyone gets saved. Might want to check that spiritual-moral compass, maybe get it serviced.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

According to the scriptures we are saved by Gods' grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Now if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God according to Romans 10:17 how can we demonstrate faith when God's Word says that we receive by faith by believing what God's Word says? Now God's Word says that the wicked will the destroyed at the second coming. Are we demonstrating faith by believing or not believing what Gods' Word says? How then can we demonstrate faith if we do not believe Gods' Word that we receive faith by and instead follow the lies of Universalism from Genesis 3:1-5 which says we can disobey God's Word and not surely die? I am genuinely interested to know your answers to the above questions.

Take Care.

Obviously, we're demonstrating faith by believing that Jesus is the saviour of the world, and that means something, which is not the permanent and total destruction of the overwhelming majority. Here it is, now try to concentrate, try to think...

Saviour of world ≠ Destroyer of the many.

Saviour of the world = Redeemer of all.

It's really not rocket surgery. Under normal circumstances, I'd think you were pulling my leg with this absurd notion that Jesus saves the world by killing everyone. It's black humour, a sick joke, surely you get that...?

 

[rjs330]

I suspect what will happen is, you'll give me a counter interpretation of whatever verse I supply, and insist that interpretation is incontrovertible. And that any other way of seeing it, is completely invalid.

Here's one I came across on my own. I believe the standard argument is that it doesn't really say what says. I'll be testing you, as you requested, to see how well you can shoot it down in a clean and concise manner.

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15 as a key verse, but really all of Romans 5.

Remember the principle of scripture never contradicts itself and scripture interprets scripture. Yes using that verse is taken out of context. Look what Paul says earlier.

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. - Romans 5:1-2 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:1-2 - American Standard Version

And what he says later.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him . - Romans 8:1-17 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:1-17 - American Standard Version

Not that faith is required for the graxe if God to be upon us. It does not happen automatically. We are justifies by faith and access by faith to the grace of God. Secondly in Romans 8

Walking in the flesh makes us in enmity with God. The mind of the flesh is death. The flesh cannot please God. The Spirit has to dwell within us to give us life. Those that do not have the Spirit in them are dead and are NONE OF HIS. If you are led by the Spirit you are the son of God and heirs with him of the kingdom. You have to have the Spirit of Christ within you and live in the Spirit not the flesh.

So, not the verse is NOT saying that everyone is automatically saved because of Christ's death and resurrection. You have to place your faith in him receive his sprit in order to be his and an heir to the kingdom. It's what it says. Context proves this point. Taking the verse out of context is the problem we see in UR. Scripture interprets scripture.

 

[rjs330]

Obviously, we're demonstrating faith by believing that Jesus is the saviour of the world, and that means something, which is not the permanent and total destruction of the overwhelming majority. Here it is, now try to concentrate, try to think...

Saviour of world ≠ Destroyer of the many.

Saviour of the world = Redeemer of all.

It's really not rocket surgery. Under normal circumstances, I'd think you were pulling my leg with this absurd notion that Jesus saves the world by killing everyone. It's black humour, a sick joke, surely you get that...?

You do realize that Christ kills a lot of people in the end days right?

And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself.And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God;that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great.And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army.And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone:and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh. - Revelation 19:11-21 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 19:11-21 - American Standard Version

 

[ozso]

Remember the principle of scripture never contradicts itself and scripture interprets scripture. Yes using that verse is taken out of context. Look what Paul says earlier.

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. - Romans 5:1-2 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:1-2 - American Standard Version

And what he says later.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him . - Romans 8:1-17 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:1-17 - American Standard Version

Not that faith is required for the graxe if God to be upon us. It does not happen automatically. We are justifies by faith and access by faith to the grace of God. Secondly in Romans 8

Walking in the flesh makes us in enmity with God. The mind of the flesh is death. The flesh cannot please God. The Spirit has to dwell within us to give us life. Those that do not have the Spirit in them are dead and are NONE OF HIS. If you are led by the Spirit you are the son of God and heirs with him of the kingdom. You have to have the Spirit of Christ within you and live in the Spirit not the flesh.

So, not the verse is NOT saying that everyone is automatically saved because of Christ's death and resurrection. You have to place your faith in him receive his sprit in order to be his and an heir to the kingdom. It's what it says. Context proves this point. Taking the verse out of context is the problem we see in UR. Scripture interprets scripture.

So what is Romans 5:15 saying then?

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"

 

[hedrick]

So what is Romans 5:15 saying then?

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"

While I think it's clear he means all, the better citations are where he actually does: "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" (1 Cor 15:22)

I don't accept universalism because I don't think Jesus did, but I think it's possible for Biblical authors to disagree.

 

[Saint Steven]

... but I think it's possible for Biblical authors to disagree. ...

That would be something to explore.

 

[ozso]

While I think it's clear he means all, the better citations are where he actually does: "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" (1 Cor 15:22)

I don't accept universalism because I don't think Jesus did, but I think it's possible for Biblical authors to disagree.

There's also, "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

I'm not saying that's proof of universalism, but I have to wonder what such statements are implying, because they certainly don't seem to imply exclusivism.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I don't accept universalism because I don't think Jesus did, but I think it's possible for Biblical authors to disagree.

The only folks Jesus hosed down over salvation were the arrogant religious types who believed they were chosen and others weren't. Ah plus ca change...

 

[Lazarus Short]

Ruth was a Moabite. (Ruth 1:22)

Ruth 1:16 NIV
But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God.

Actually, Ruth was an Israelite. We know this in spite of Ruth 2:2, "And Ruth the Moabitess...", for that was just the territory she came from as a matter of geography. We know she was of Israel, for Boaz is said to be her kinsman in 2:20, 3:2 and 3:12-13. The events of Chapter 4 would only apply to an Israelite woman, so that clinches it, IMHO.

 

[Lazarus Short]

This must be the most indecipherable and impenetrable (to me, thank goodness) post I've yet read on CF, which is saying something lol

Since I am well-read in the "Identity" sect of Christianity, it makes sense to me. Most will not have the under-girding necessary to understand it fully.

 

[Hmm]

Since I am well-read in the "Identity" sect of Christianity, it makes sense to me. Most will not have the under-girding necessary to understand it fully.

'Identity' Christianity sounds pretty scary to me but I respect your opinion so is not having that under-girding and understanding something to be grateful for or is it something devoutly to be wished for?

 

[Lazarus Short]

'Identity' Christianity sounds pretty scary to me but I respect your opinion so is not having that under-girding and understanding something to be grateful for or is it something devoutly to be wished for?

That is difficult to say. Kind of like SDA theology, I absorbed Identity theology and moved on. "Identity theology" is almost a misnomer, as a lot of it is supported by secular history, archaeology, heraldry, linguistics, and a host of other fields of study. It's very much an interdisciplinary thing, and yet there is no unanimity on which modern nations represent which tribes of Israel. I have my opinions, others have theirs. For instance, I have in my library a whole book, written by a Dutch lady living in England, that the Dutch people are the descendants of Zebulun...and she makes a compelling case. Indentity is definitely Strong Meat, not milk.

 

[Hmm]

Indentity is definitely Strong Meat, not milk.

Interesting info, thanks. It makes me want to be vegetarian or even vegan (in between meals that is).

 

[rjs330]

While I think it's clear he means all, the better citations are where he actually does: "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" (1 Cor 15:22)

I don't accept universalism because I don't think Jesus did, but I think it's possible for Biblical authors to disagree.

You should start a thread on that. Do authors disagree?

 

[rjs330]

So what is Romans 5:15 saying then?

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"

It's in the contexts I mentioned. But first note that the verse says the gift is not like the trespass. So we can't make them identical. Paul clarifies the gift and the trespass are not identical things. One was laid on all people due to the original sin. As Paul says For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. He says in other places that everyone has sinned. The scriptures make it clear. So Paul isn't trying to suddenly contradict himself. He is trying to show the difference between the gift and the trespass. And he does so incontext. The gift is a gift to us not a guarantee for everyone. It is different. The gift must be received by faith. When someone hands you a gift you have to take it. You could choose not to. And it has to be received in this case by faith.

The trespass was horrible, but he gift is better and stronger, able to cover your trespasses. If you receive the gift by faith. This is clear in context. Of the chapter and others in Romans.

 

[rjs330]

There's also, "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

I'm not saying that's proof of universalism, but I have to wonder what such statements are implying, because they certainly don't seem to imply exclusivism.

It's implying what all scripture teaches. Chriat died for all to provide salvation for all. His sacrifice is sufficient to cover anyone and everyone who believes. If the entire world from Christ's time until now put their faith in him everyone would have been saved.

Jesus said to the disciples they are blessed because they saw him and believed, even more are blessed because they did not see him, but still believed.

I keep making this point. Jesus died for all to make a way for all. His sacrifice is enough. No other sacrifice needs be made. His sacrifice was enough to save everyone if everyone put their faith in him. The sad part is not everyone will. Because Jesus said it ... Men like darkness rather than light. People will prefer to live their lives their own way rather than entrust their lives to him and live his way.

 

[rjs330]

The only folks Jesus hosed down over salvation were the arrogant religious types who believed they were chosen and others weren't. Ah plus ca change...

The real reason was because they were hypocrites. Pretending to be righteous while they were rotten to the core. Much of the world is line that. Think about it. People don't want Jesus because they believe they are good enough on their own. Or they trust in other religions, the ones made up by man. Their way is the way they want it. Thinking they are in the right path and superior. While they are rotten inside because the devil has deceived them and they love the deception. Because they are proud.

Believers have to humble themselves for salvation. They have to recognize they are in need if a saviour. They have to repent recognizing their deeds as evil and know they fallen short of Gods glory. You don't come to faith by pride, but by humility. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

The pharisees thought they did not need Christ or to humble themselves. They wanted to kill him. It wasn't that they were believers. They never were.

 

[ozso]

It's implying what all scripture teaches. Chriat died for all to provide salvation for all. His sacrifice is sufficient to cover anyone and everyone who believes. If the entire world from Christ's time until now put their faith in him everyone would have been saved.

Jesus said to the disciples they are blessed because they saw him and believed, even more are blessed because they did not see him, but still believed.

I keep making this point. Jesus died for all to make a way for all. His sacrifice is enough. No other sacrifice needs be made. His sacrifice was enough to save everyone if everyone put their faith in him. The sad part is not everyone will. Because Jesus said it ... Men like darkness rather than light. People will prefer to live their lives their own way rather than entrust their lives to him and live his way.

The UR view is it divides people into two categories. All people, and then also, especially of those who believe. If Jesus is only the savior of those who believe, why the separate categories?

 

[Hmm]

The UR view is it divides people into two categories. All people, and then also, especially of those who believe. If Jesus is only the savior of those who believe, why the separate categories?

Yes, and "especially of those who believe" does not mean "exclusive to those who believe" as Team Hell are reduced to saying lol