WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[Neogaia777]

Thanks. I hope you a right.
Imagine what would be like if you were not right. Yikes!

Well, I'm not God, and I'm not infallible, and so I do "err" sometimes, etc, but I just hope it's a whole heck of a lot less now than I use to hopefully, etc...

That was funny though, thanks.

Peace and Love.

God Bless!

 

[rjs330]

There's a lot more than one verse that implies universal reconciliation. Which you should know by now. You haven't moved beyond posting the same basic message over and over again. What do you think inherit the kingdom of God means? Is it that one either inherits a kingdom or they spend eternity in a torture dungeon? Can there be nothing in between those two extremes?

This is not a discussion on hell. It is a discussion on UR. Yes I use the verses over and over again. They are proof that UR is not biblical.

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

1. UR uses various verses to try and prove their point. But the verses are mostly taken out of context.

2. Or the verses don't say what UR claims they say.

Every time a UR verse pops out I'm able to show how they are not an actual UR verse.

UR is NOT biblical. What happens to the unbeliever after they die and are judged? One thing we do know is they do not get into the heaven to be with the ones who believed before death. They NEVER get in.

What kind of punishment they get is a different topic.

 

[rjs330]

What do you think inherit the kingdom of God means?

I think you know what it means to inherit the kingdom means. Believers become heirs with Christ. Because we are of the spirit and not of the flesh. Our faith and hope in Christ and we are his. If we are not then we are none of his. We have no inheritance. We are not am heir. We will NOT be part of the kingdom.

Those verses are clear as a bell.

For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him . - Romans 8:5-17 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:5-17 - American Standard Version

 

[rjs330]

Not so, a person is dead in their sins and trespasses until they die in Christ, upon which they are made alive, given the fire of the spirit. Have you not experienced it? You must be born again.

Nobody who hasn't been born again, ie baptised with fire and the spirit can enter the Kingdom. That's because it takes exomolgeo, giving it up for God, casting to the wind what you think you know, who you think you are, all those false idols we've all been indoctrinated with. Once that occurs, the hand is set to the plow.

God's Kingdom is radically different, there's no friendship between the world and the table of demons. A believer can't love God and love Nasa, for instance, the two are irreconcilable.

When God says He's going to bless and save all the nations, when He sends Jesus to be the saviour of the world, when He seals His promise in holy blood, and when He gives us end-time visions of deliverance of the nations in the renewal of all things, I believe Him. Now, it may be that many find that great truth offensive (a stumbling stone to Jews and foolishness to Greeks), but so be it, God has no fellowship with the fallen ways of the world, He's intent on restoring creation to His image. He doesn't love you or me any less than He loves the hookers and tax collectors downtown.

All things are in His hands, and for Him to change the heart of a fornicator, an idolater, an adulterer, an effeminate, an abuser of themselves with men, a thief, the covetous, a drunkard, a reviler, or an extortioner is a beautiful thing. Miracles are commonplace in the Kingdom, and what's impossible for man is certainly not impossible for God.

So there's no 'time limits' on 'your salvation'. It's nothing you do, how can you talk about it like it's some sort of achievement on your part, that's self-righteousness - you have your reward. God appoints the time for salvation of all men, it's all in His hands. All things from Him, through Him and to Him. Exitus et reditus. Perhaps you should submit to Christ.

Only those that believe are saved. If you don't believe before you die, and don't confuse physical death and being dead in your trespasses and sins. Because this body dies, but our soul lives on and we will receive a new body incorrubtable.

You said it your self. You must be born again. If you are not then you will die in your trespasses and sin. You have to be born again whole you are alive on this earth. Once you are dead it is too late. God will not save you. You had your chance and you refused his son. There are no more opportunities to be part of his kingdom after you are buried in the ground.

And I don't know what this nonsense is with your last statement. But it appears that you are challenging my salvation.

 

[ozso]

Satan and the angels that followed him did. Seems feasible for us.

Interested to see where this discussion goes. - lol

I keep hearing that if God restored everyone, it would be against their free will or they would be robbed of their free will. However it's put, it's clearly viewed as a really bad thing to happen.
So I have to wonder what happens to the free will of those who inherit the kingdom. In other words am I stuck with being righteous for eternity, or will I still have the free will to rebel somewhere down the line?

 

[rjs330]

things are in His hands, and for Him to change the heart of a fornicator, an idolater, an adulterer, an effeminate, an abuser of themselves with men, a thief, the covetous, a drunkard, a reviler, or an extortioner is a beautiful thing. Miracles are commonplace in the Kingdom, and what's impossible for man is certainly not impossible for God.

On this we agree. We can't change our own hearts. Only God can. And faith in Christ is required for salvation. When that happens God is faithful to work in us to confirm us into the image of his son. That doesn't happen until we are born again. And we are not born again until we believe. And we can only be born again in this life, not the next.

 

[rjs330]

Did you forget? I don't believe in hell. And neither do all these Bible translators.

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

That's irrelevant. We just use the word as a generic term for the palace of punishment for the unbeliever. Just like we use the word Trinity which not in the bible either.

It doesn't mean "hell" doesn't exist. It's just a word. We don't run around using words like Gehenna.

 

[rjs330]

Here's an open question. Will we have free will to sin once we're in heaven?

Start a new thread

 

[Shrewd Manager]

On this we agree. We can't change our own hearts. Only God can. And faith in Christ is required for salvation. When that happens God is faithful to work in us to confirm us into the image of his son. That doesn't happen until we are born again. And we are not born again until we believe. And we can only be born again in this life, not the next.

Right, so how can we believe unless God 'helps our unbelief'? You seem to want it both ways, or are you plumping for double predestination, where God deliberately leaves many folks in the dark just so He can burn them in hell forever?

Only those that believe are saved. If you don't believe before you die, and don't confuse physical death and being dead in your trespasses and sins. Because this body dies, but our soul lives on and we will receive a new body incorrubtable.

Where does the Bible say that a person's point of physical death is the salvation cutoff point? I hope you can see a rule like that would in practice be so ridiculously unjust as to be pure evil? To the contrary, Jesus has conquered death, he holds the keys to death, it is no obstacle for him to raise the dead to life, in fact that's his business model. Do you deny the representative resurrection of Adamic mankind into the risen Christ? Everyone is appointed to die and be resurrected, some unto judgment, ie needing salvation from sin and death.

 

[ozso]

Start a new thread

I might. But it's part of this discussion since one of the main objections to universal reconciliation brought up in this thread, is that it would violate free will.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I might. But it's part of this discussion since one of the main objections to universal reconciliation is that it would rob mankind of free will.

Good point. I have not really discussed "free will" in relation to Universalism but your correct. The teachings of Universalism robs man of free will as it teaches all men will be forced into repentance to believe and follow what God's Word says. Good pickup.

 

[ozso]

On this we agree. We can't change our own hearts. Only God can. And faith in Christ is required for salvation. When that happens God is faithful to work in us to confirm us into the image of his son. That doesn't happen until we are born again. And we are not born again until we believe. And we can only be born again in this life, not the next.

Is there scripture which specifically states that? Hebrews 9:27 is usually the go to verse. But that's actually a universal statement that applies to everyone.

 

[ozso]

This is not a discussion on hell. It is a discussion on UR. Yes I use the verses over and over again. They are proof that UR is not biblical.

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

1. UR uses various verses to try and prove their point. But the verses are mostly taken out of context.

2. Or the verses don't say what UR claims they say.

Every time a UR verse pops out I'm able to show how they are not an actual UR verse.

UR is NOT biblical. What happens to the unbeliever after they die and are judged? One thing we do know is they do not get into the heaven to be with the ones who believed before death. They NEVER get in.

What kind of punishment they get is a different topic.

I think you should have made that no discussing hell rule about 29 pages ago.

1. All proof texts try to make a point. And I haven't seen anyone conclusively prove that UR proof texts are out of context.

2. That's said about most views someone is against.

I'd say it's more like you disagree that it's a verse that supports UR.

That's your opinion, based on your interpretation of scripture.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

And I haven't seen anyone conclusively prove that UR proof texts are out of context.

Try me

 

[Andrewn]

Exactly!
There is no resolution of the sin problem. It just continues for all eternity. UR to the rescue. - lol

Rom 6:7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

 

[Saint Steven]

I keep hearing that if God restored everyone, it would be against their free will or they would be robbed of their free will. However it's put, it's clearly viewed as a really bad thing to happen.
So I have to wonder what happens to the free will of those who inherit the kingdom. In other words am I stuck with being righteous for eternity, or will I still have the free will to rebel somewhere down the line?

Agree.
Here in this life we have natural consequences for sin and even errors in judgment, or behavior.

I wonder if there would be supernatural consequences in the afterlife? If I can use the word "supernatural" in this sense.

Or would we still have a conscience if there is nothing to temp us to sin?

I believe that at the Fall in the garden, the enemy was given access to our minds. The source of tempting thoughts. What would life be like without that?

 

[Saint Steven]

Rom 6:7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

The context doesn't indicate a reference to physical death. But rather death to self, the flesh, the old man, sin... (Romans 6:11)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Exactly!
There is no resolution of the sin problem. It just continues for all eternity. UR to the rescue. - lol

 

[hedrick]

The context doesn't indicate a reference to physical death. But rather death to self, the flesh, the old man, sin... (Romans 6:11)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Exactly!
There is no resolution of the sin problem. It just continues for all eternity. UR to the rescue. - lol

Huh? Rom 6:7 is talking about us experiencing death with Jesus. That was physical death. You think the cross wasn’t a physical experience! How about the resurrection? Paul seems to think that death frees from sin. But he also thinks that by vicariously experiencing Jesus’ death, we can die to sin while we’re still alive.

 

[Saint Steven]

Huh? Rom 6:7 is talking about us experiencing death with Jesus. That was physical death. You think the cross wasn’t a physical experience! How about the resurrection? Paul seems to think that death frees from sin. But he also thinks that by vicariously experiencing Jesus’ death, we can die to sin while we’re still alive.

Well yes, but "vicariously experiencing Jesus’ death" isn't physical death for us.

If we claim that death frees everyone from sin, that would be a support for UR. But I don't think that is what this is about.

Saint Steven said: ↑
The context doesn't indicate a reference to physical death. But rather death to self, the flesh, the old man, sin... (Romans 6:11)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Exactly!
There is no resolution of the sin problem. It just continues for all eternity. UR to the rescue. - lol

 

[rjs330]

Right, so how can we believe unless God 'helps our unbelief'? You seem to want it both ways, or are you plumping for double predestination, where God deliberately leaves many folks in the dark just so He can burn them in hell forever?

What do you mean both ways. There's only one way. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That's it.
Jesus told his disciples to go and make disciples and Paul told people to tell people the gospel.

But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them.And when they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted.And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. - Matthew 28:16-20 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 28:16-20 - American Standard Version

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things! - Romans 10:8-15 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 10:8-15 - American Standard Version