WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[rjs330]

I've never heard of anyone weeping and gnashing teeth when they burn, standard practice as I understand it is to raise horrible blood-curdling screams as the flesh melts. It's clearly a metaphor of deep regret, but there's nothing about eternal punishment here. God's grace doesn't expire when you do.

Outer darkness, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth is what happens to the unbeliever after judgement.

God's grace is no longer available to you after death. You should have availed yourself of it before you died. Thats why it's so important to believe. For now is the day of salvation.

Cause Jesus is clear that at the final judgement there is no more grace offered. Why do you refuse to believe what Jesus says?

 

[rjs330]

Tell it to the thief on the cross made righteous in his moment of compassion. I suggest the Kingdom won't be found by judging others worthy of eternal punishment, or judging God's character in that way...or for judging oneself above others.

The thief received compassion because he believed in Christ. The other thief was lost forever because he didn't.

 

[rjs330]

As for you, I'm glad you believe you're above all that, that's between you and God. But should the possibility that your wool needs a good scrub with fuller's soap be so hard to face?

Where do you come up with this? Where have I ever said anything like this?

Are you bearing false witness?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I haven't missed the whole goal. God had a plan from the very beginning to provide a way of salvation. It's all through the Old Testament. So we are in agreement there.

But His plan was to provide the sacrifice needed for salvation and he provided that in order to partake of that sacrifice and be covered by that sacrifice, we have to believe. Faith is Christ is required for the blood of Christ to cover all our sins.

Agreed.

I have no idea what you are talking about in reference to judging the Omega. I don't understand the reference or why you made that statement.

You said:

In the end it is Christ who judges the Alpha and Omega.

Jesus IS the Omega. That directly translates as 'God's salvation is the endpoint'.

How can Jesus be incompatible with himself? He IS the Alpha and Omega. And you are absolutely correct that rejection of Christ is unbelief. And because of that the unbeliever is rejected by Christ and does not get to participate in the goodness of God and the power of heaven. The unbeliever is out because of unbelief and the rejection of Christ.

The unbelief (and sins) is what is targeted for destruction. Destroy the unbelief, and thereby deliver the unbeliever unto repentance. This is spiritual warfare.

“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.” (Rev 15:4)

Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. (Isa 60:5)

All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. (Ps 86:9)

Every knee, every tongue...

If the many are not ultimately saved, then Jesus is not the Omega. Salvation is not the endpoint, or has failed. Unbelievers don't get saved? Torture them forever? Of course not, it's 'overcome the unbelief', preach the gospel to raise the dead...that's the calling. Fishers of men.

And there is the second death which is the Lake of Fire.

Where death is destroyed, by finally overcoming the love of sin, including false pride which is idolatry.

Outer darkness, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth is what happens to the unbeliever after judgement.

So is it outer darkness or a lake of fire? Or the darkness outside the wedding party? And what's to stop the ill-attired guest from heading off for a change of apparel and trying again? The Pearly Gates stand ever-open. (Rev 21:25)

God's grace is no longer available to you after death.

Cause Jesus is clear that at the final judgement there is no more grace offered. Why do you refuse to believe what Jesus says?

Scripture?

The thief received compassion because he believed in Christ. The other thief was lost forever because he didn't.

The thief received justification because he showed compassion to Christ, as an innocent man. Where does it say the other thief was lost forever?

Where do you come up with this? Where have I ever said anything like this?

Are you bearing false witness?

Well, do you fit any of the categories in Rev 21:8? Pray with me:

Most holy and merciful Father,
We confess to you and to one another,
that we have sinned against you
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our
whole heart and mind and strength.
We have not fully loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We have not always had in us the mind of Christ.
You alone know how often we have grieved you
by wasting your gifts, by wandering from your ways.
Forgive us, we pray you, most merciful Father;
And free us from our sin.
Renew in us the grace and strength of your Holy Spirit,
for the sake of Jesus Christ your Son our Savior. Amen.

 

[rjs330]

Jesus IS the Omega. That directly translates as 'God's salvation is the endpoint'.

Ah.. I see the confusion. Bad sentence structure in my part.

 

[rjs330]

unbelief (and sins) is what is targeted for destruction. Destroy the unbelief, and thereby deliver the unbeliever unto repentance. This is spiritual warfare.

“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.” (Rev 15:4)

Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. (Isa 60:5)

All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. (Ps 86:9)

Every knee, every tongue...

If the many are not ultimately saved, then Jesus is not the Omega. Salvation is not the endpoint, or has failed. Unbelievers don't get saved? Torture them forever? Of course not, it's 'overcome the unbelief', preach the gospel to raise the dead...that's the calling. Fishers of men.

More scripture taken out of context. Take a look at what happens in chapter 14 and 16

And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs. - Revelation 14:14-20 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 14:14-20 - American Standard Version

Recognizing God and Jesus as Lord does not guarantee salvation. Of course the Gentiles have access to salvation. That was promised. But the promise was never made that every Gentile WOULD be saved.

No, Christ IS the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. The ultimate righteous judge. And everyone who is NOT found in the Lambs Book is cast out. Forever. There are NO verses that proclaim that everyone gets saved. There are NO verses that say those cast I to the Lake of Fire are purged of their sin and ultimately are saved. In fact the scripture says the opposite of that. It's the people that are cast in. Nothing says they get back out.

You are making that up. No there is Nothing that says "overcome their unbelief". You are making that up. It's the overcomers who get in at the time. Not later.

You are just making stuff up because it doesn't fit your doctrine instead of making your doctrine fit what scripture says.

 

[Andrewn]

God's grace is no longer available to you after death.

1) Where, in the Bible do you get this?
2) If goodness and grace are attributes of God, why would they disappear?

 

[rjs330]

is it outer darkness or a lake of fire? Or the darkness outside the wedding party? And what's to stop the ill-attired guest from heading off for a change of apparel and trying again? The Pearly Gates stand ever-open. (Rev 21:25)

Does lake of fire have to be bright? Are you assuming the Lake Fire is just like the fire we have on earth? I'm not. The bible doesn't describe everything it's like.

 

[rjs330]

Scripture?

What scripture says you can access Gods grace and obtain salvation after you die?

 

[rjs330]

The thief received justification because he showed compassion to Christ, as an innocent man. Where does it say the other thief was lost forever?

No he was saved because he recognized his sinfulness and asked Christ to remember him to when he enters his kingdom. And Christ told the thief he would join him in paradise.

The other their mocked and Christ did not tell him he was in. He r ceived no promise.

 

[rjs330]

Well, do you fit any of the categories in Rev 21:8? Pray with me:

Most holy and merciful Father,
We confess to you and to one another,
that we have sinned against you
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our
whole heart and mind and strength.
We have not fully loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We have not always had in us the mind of Christ.
You alone know how often we have grieved you
by wasting your gifts, by wandering from your ways.
Forgive us, we pray you, most merciful Father;
And free us from our sin.
Renew in us the grace and strength of your Holy Spirit,
for the sake of Jesus Christ your Son our Savior. Amen.

Again you are bearing false witness. Are you making some sort of claim that I never do that? Are you making some sort of claim that I believe I have no sin? Are you just being a troll?

 

[rjs330]

1) Where, in the Bible do you get this?
2) If goodness and grace are attributes of God, why would they disappear?

Let me be as clear as I can. God's grace is no longer available for access to the unbeliever after they die. God is still good and his grace continues for those who have not died. After you die you can no longer access his grace. People have to do it while alive. That is what scripture says.

He is the same yesterday, today and forever. And he has proclaimed that his grace is no longer available to us after we die. Thus he hasn't changed.

 

[Andrewn]

-

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Does lake of fire have to be bright? Are you assuming the Lake Fire is just like the fire we have on earth? I'm not. The bible doesn't describe everything it's like.

Yes, I don't believe the HS is in the business of putting light for dark, hot for cold or black for white. His analogies and metaphors are perfect and true, is my starting point.

What scripture says you can access Gods grace and obtain salvation after you die?

I've given you a whole lot, in the categories: (a) Salvation is the plan and purpose (b) Everyone gets resurrected (c) Jesus saves the world (though it might be painful for some).

No he was saved because he recognized his sinfulness and asked Christ to remember him to when he enters his kingdom. And Christ told the thief he would join him in paradise.

Because he had compassion for Jesus, that is love of God and neighbour.

The other their mocked and Christ did not tell him he was in. He r ceived no promise.

He remained lost, and one to whom Jesus will release later from death and/or Hades, for the resurrection unto judgment, whereby his unbelief will be destroyed and he will repent and worship Christ, who has already forgiven him in his ignorance.

Again you are bearing false witness. Are you making some sort of claim that I never do that? Are you making some sort of claim that I believe I have no sin? Are you just being a troll?

No prayers for me? I'm merely asking you to consider whether you'll need some purification with holy fire. You're very testy about it. Mark 9:49-50; Isaiah 6:6-7.

 

[rjs330]

Where in the Bible?

Have you not been reading the posts? Because I have pasted the scriptures into them.

 

[rjs330]

Here's another that is important.

For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son;that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him.Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. - John 5:21-29 Bible Gateway passage: John 5:21-29 - American Standard Version

All will be raised to life or judgement. It's not all will be raised to eternal life in Christ. Those who hear shall live. Those who believe shall have eternal life. At the time of resurrection it's over.

 

[rjs330]

I've given you a whole lot, in the categories: (a) Salvation is the plan and purpose (b) Everyone gets resurrected (c) Jesus saves the world (though it might be painful for some).

No you haven't. Because everything you given is either taken out of context or doesn't say what you claim.

No scripture says you can get saved after death. In fact the scriptures say that is NOT what happens.

 

[rjs330]

Because he had compassion for Jesus, that is love of God and neighbour.

And one of the malefactors that were hanged railed on him, saying, Art not thou the Christ? save thyself and us.But the other answered, and rebuking him said, Dost thou not even fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise. - Luke 23:39-43 Bible Gateway passage: Luke 23:39-43 - American Standard Version

Note what he says. He admits his sin. Recognizes Jesus for who he is and asks Jesus to remember him when he comes into his kingdom. He believed in Jesus. Thats why he was saved.

Again you do your very best to read into scripture things that are not there. He WASNT kind to Jesus. He recognized Jesus for who he was.

 

[rjs330]

He remained lost, and one to whom Jesus will release later from death and/or Hades, for the resurrection unto judgment, whereby his unbelief will be destroyed and he will repent and worship Christ, who has already forgiven him in his ignorance.

There are no scriptures that support this. None.

 

[rjs330]

prayers for me? I'm merely asking you to consider whether you'll need some purification with holy fire. You're very testy about it. Mark 9:49-50; Isaiah 6:

Interesting that you didn't answer my questions.

I think you've veered into the territory of, you can't really prove your point so you attack the poster.

Now will you please answer the questions?