WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[BNR32FAN]

That's this world. This world and heaven along with it is going to be incinerated
and renewed.

The present heavens are earth are being reserved for fire being kept for judgement day. What your referring to takes place after judgement day so the righteous will not be there when it happens because they will be in the new Heaven and new earth.

“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Saint Steven]

Loving restoration? Where are you getting this definition of hell from? Every verse I’m familiar with describes hell as a place of torment and destruction.

Did you forget? I don't believe in hell. And neither do all these Bible translators.

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

 

[Saint Steven]

Who ever said that everyone in the churches will be saved? Many people come to the church at first out of fear and over time develop a love for God, some don’t.

Is love for God required?

 

[Saint Steven]

If there were no spend limit I would think that ice would be right at the top of my list.

How much would you need? (plan ahead)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did you forget? I don't believe in hell. And neither do all these Bible translators.

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

None of those bibles mention the word Trinity either. Hell is the name given to the place of suffering aka Gehenna, aka the lake of fire. How many of those bibles mention Gehenna or the lake of fire? All of them?

 

[BNR32FAN]

How much would you need? (plan ahead)

just keep it coming

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is love for God required?

I can’t think of any scripture that specifically says so but I do personally believe it is a requirement.

 

[ozso]

The present heavens are earth are being reserved for fire being kept for judgement day. What your referring to takes place after judgement day so the righteous will not be there when it happens because they will be in the new Heaven and new earth.

Ah so. That was a spur of the moment idea that I hadn't thought through.

“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So in that light, how does 'only those who believe will be saved' apply?

Because God says so. "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him." - John 3:36 (more scripture starting here linked)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are completely missing my point. When I wrote "hell", I mean the standard Christian view of hell, not my view of loving restoration. Here's the point, since you missed it.

Assuming the standard Christian view of hell is correct, how much torture would be required to correct the sinful behavior? I estimate that everyone who had a button to push to indicate willing compliance would hit the button within ten seconds. (imagine falling into lava naked) What would be the purpose of an eternity with no hope of escape? Only a sadistic tyrant would create such a situation.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Eternity is a long time. Endless suffering with no hope of escape. No one deserves that.

And frankly, it would only take about ten seconds of that for anyone to change their mind. So, what is the point of an eternity if not sadistic torture?

Hell is not loving restoration. That view is not supported in scripture.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's always been the main question for me going back to when I was a child. What's the point of eternal torment?

There is no such thing according to the scriptures. Ezekiel 18:4-9 [4], Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I would posit that the churches are full of those who are only there due to the fear of hell. (and the tyrant they were told would send them there if they didn't choose a side)

Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments5 : his praise endures for ever.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

GODS GREAT LOVE AND THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM

God is a God of love and mercy however God is also a God of justice and judgement for sin and according to the scriptures, the wages of sin is death but God so loved our world that whosoever should believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life *John 3:16. The wages of sin is death and we have all sinned and fall short of God's glory but the God of heaven's great love is also seen in His justice and judgement for sin. This is where we see Jesus who chose to leave His throne as the God of Heaven and earth, because of His great love for us, not willing that anyone of us should perish but that all of us should come to repentance and be saved *2 Peter 3:9. Jesus the God of heaven and earth, came to live as one of us *John 1:1-4; 14 as Gods supreme sacrifice for all the sins of the world because of His great love for us. Jesus chose to give up His life, as the sinless son of God that whosoever should believe on him should not perish but have everlasting life *John 3:16.

Gods salvation of course is conditional on believing on him and holding out the hand of faith to receive Gods' free gift of grace, mercy and love *Ephesians 2:8-9. But not everyone will choose to believe God's Word, loving their sins more than God and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved but he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God *John 3:19-21. Gods' salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says as it is written; "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him." - John 3:36.

The false teachings of Universalism seeks to separate Gods' love and mercy from Gods' justice. Yet Gods' great love is only revealed in His great love, justice and mercy combined. According to the scriptures God is a God of love mercy and justice; "Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the children's children, to the third and to the fourth generation." Exodus 34:7.

Yet here we are. It is only in God's judgement and justice for sin that we can truly see God's great love for all mankind that the God of heaven not willing that anyone of us should perish but that everyone of us should have the opportunity to return to God through believing Gods Word. The only way that this could happen was that Jesus should leave heaven as the sinless son of God and choose to die on the cross on our behalf for the sins that we have all committed and in our place pay the penalty for our sins which is death so that we believing should not perish but receive Gods free gift of everlasting life. The false teachings of Universalism makes indeed a mockery of the death of God's dear son claiming God is a God of love and mercy but not a God of judgement and justice. If God was not a God of justice and judgement there would be absolutely no need for Jesus to die for our sins because the wages of sin is death from God's justice and judgement.

If God was not a God of love, mercy and justice and all the unbelieving, unrepentant wicked are going to be saved according to the lies of Genesis 3:1-5. There would be absolutely no need for Jesus to come into our world to die on the cross paying the penalty for our sins and dying the death that we all deserve to die so that we believing should not perish but have everlasting life. In fact the false teachings of Universalism that has it's origin in the scriptures from the lies of Genesis 3:1-5 makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son as if it was all for nothing because it teaches separation of God's love and mercy from His justice and judgement for sin and the sacrifice of Gods' dear son Jesus as Gods' lamb *John 1:29 dying our death because he so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Take Care.

 

[Saint Steven]

Ah so. ...

That's a very Japanese/English phrase.

 

[ozso]

Here's an open question. Will we have free will to sin once we're in heaven?

 

[Neogaia777]

Here's an open question. Will we have free will to sin once we're in heaven?

Those who would there, once they are there, would not be allowed in to begin with, which God already knows from before they ever get there, or into judgement first I mean, etc, so, no we really won't, because it has already been decided, etc, we just get to have it revealed, and know who from who, and what from what, and why, etc, before some are allowed in, and some are not, etc, because God chooses to do that for us first, etc, to show us just exactly how He is a truly just God, etc, so that none would ever be able to ever call it into question ever again after that, etc, and so it wouldn't even come up into our hearts and minds anymore after that, etc, thereby eliminating even the future possibility of any kind of "sin" anymore after that, etc, and keeping that place, and us in that place, "perfect", etc.

God Bless!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I see, so after all that you do believe after all the wicked will be saved which means I was right the first time round. According to the scriptures the wicked do not receive everlasting life (John 3:36; see also the 100+ scriptures starting in the OP that disagree with you.

No! The doctor comes for the sick, the healthy have no need of Him.

It's just as Paul puts it in 1 Cor 5:5 - destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved.

What's the point in saving those who are already righteous? Absolutely NADA!

You seem to be acting deliberately obtuse. Do you have a difficulty in distinguishing the flesh from the spirit?

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's an open question. Will we have free will to sin once we're in heaven?

Satan and the angels that followed him did. Seems feasible for us.

Interested to see where this discussion goes. - lol

 

[Neogaia777]

Satan and the angels that followed him did. Seems feasible for us.

Interested to see where this discussion goes. - lol

That was in the beginning though, and not the end. The whole purpose of everything being messed up by Satan in the beginning, was to bring us all (except Satan) to a point of eternal and everlasting (after that) point of perfection and/or obedience in the end. Most of the good ones, or ones who will get in, who now have a strong desire for God and His Kingdom/Heaven and such, only became that way, or only became such, only through a temporary period of disobedience originally caused by Satan, etc.

But in or by the end we are told what eventually happens to him, etc.

But in way, our enemies only did us a favor because they only helped to qualify us or make us ready for Heaven in the end, and to get us to a point where we would never ever disobey ever again, etc.

And that is how it is, and always was, meant to end, etc. And we could not ever have been made "completely perfect" without it, or even him, etc.

God Bless!

 

[Saint Steven]

That was in the beginning though, and not the end. The whole purpose of everything being messed up by Satan in the beginning, was to bring us all (except Satan) to a point of eternal and everlasting (after that) point of perfection and/or obedience in the end. Most of the good ones, or ones who will get in, who now have a strong desire for God and His Kingdom/Heaven and such, only became that way, or only became such, only through a temporary period of disobedience originally caused by Satan, etc.

But in or by the end we are told what eventually happens to him, etc.

But in way, our enemies only did us a favor because they only helped to qualify us or make us ready for Heaven in the end, and to get us to a point where we would never ever disobey ever again, etc.

And that is how it is, and always was, meant to end, etc.

God Bless!

Thanks. I hope you a right.
Imagine what it would be like if you were not right. Yikes!