Why this war must be stopped!

[Gerry]

Hmmm! Bouncing and skiing!!! Whatever has gotten into BF these days?

 

[Brimshack]

It snowed here this morning. You can ski here blindfaith.

 

[ocean]

This "war" on Iraq is not about protecting America, it is not about protecting the Iraqis from Saddam, it is about oil, money, and power. Once this war ends, America will take the oil and forget about Iraq, and will not help rebuild the country or help the people.

The inspections should have been allowed to continue, the inspections were working and Iraq was disarming. It is likely that Iraq does not and never did have WMD's. Iraq was complying with UN resolutions and did everything possible to avert war.

This massacre is completely unjustified and unnecessary, and it should stop now. There is no justificaton for killing thousands of innocent people.

 

[Tau]

Today at 06:44 PM ocean said this in Post #83
This massacre is completely unjustified and unnecessary, and it should stop now. There is no justificaton for killing thousands of innocent people.

Should we rather leave them under the government of Saddam Hussein, a man who already has killed thousands of innocent people?

And how exactly did you arrive at the "thousands" figure? Last I checked, even Iraqi TV only estimated "hundreds" and they would be expected to exaggerate.

 

[Blindfaith]

Hmmm! Bouncing and skiing!!! Whatever has gotten into BF these days

LOL ~ I think it's spring fever.  I'm ready for the heat and to get rid of the soggy moldy icky dampness here where I live.  I don't mind snow, I'd love to go skiing, naturally the tropics is better, but I'm just plain sick of the rain.

 

It snowed here this morning. You can ski here blindfaith.

Sign me up Brim! Do you know how to ski? If not, we can just get into a snowball fight. Of course, we all know who would win   teehee 

 

This massacre is completely unjustified and unnecessary, and it should stop now. There is no justificaton for killing thousands of innocent people

ocean, I'm not sure where you're getting your information. As of now, it's been hundreds. And I'd like to add, that the Iraqi regime has been killing way more of their own civilians than we have. At least when we do it, it's an accident, a fact of war. When they do it, that's just plain mass murder. Why aren't you sending letters to the Iraqi regime demanding they cease and desist their murderous rages? I will give you this though, ocean, you have tenacity.

 

[Michael0701]

Ocean,

you, as well as I are entitled to our opinions. I am sure that you actually believe what you are saying or else you would be considered trolling. Can you see how by using such inflamatory words like "massacre" and "thousands of dead civilians" and it's all about "oil" and such, that your credibility diminishes. I usually don't ask this sort of question, but where are your sources? Where is the "proof" that this is all about oil? Where are you getting your civilian deaths statistics from? If you want to influence me or anyone for that matter it would certianly help to see how you are backing up your statements, otherwise it's just like a lot of my comments, hot air.

 

[ocean]

I never said thousands of dead "civilians", I said thousands of dead "people", which is true. As for using "inflammatory" words like "massacre", well, this is the word I choose to use. What is the difference between "massacre, killing, murder, slaughter, etc."?

I am certainly not a troll. I have a right to express my opinion without being called a liar and a "troll"!

Good day!

 

[ocean]

When I said "innocent people", I did not mean civilians. Most Iraqi soldiers are also innocent.

 

[Michael0701]

I guess I owe you an apology. I could see how the "tone" of my post didn't come across and I sounded too harsh. I am sorry.

Mikey

 

[Apollo Belvedre]

ocean,

You're right, the senseless acts of mass murder must be stopped and thats why we're in the Persian Gulf, to remove the despotic Saddam Hussein from power so that no more of his own people have to die by his hand.  I'm sorry but I find it rather ignorant of you to imply that the U.S. would deliberately target "thousands" of civilians.  If you're not aware Saddam is exploiting the lives of his own people and the humanity of Coalition forces to further military objectives.  And I'm sorry if you don't want to hear it but yes, Iraqis are being liberated.  

 

[OldBadfish]

Yep, they're being liberated, thank your southern friends who protect you too ocean.

before you go blasting our government and military get your facts straight.

Have a nice day.

 

[drstevej]

27th March 2003 at 01:18 PM ocean said this in Post #1

Thousands of innocent people are dying every day, and thousands more will die if this massacre isn't stopped!

Great summary of Iraq under Saddam.

BTW, can you document that thousands of innocent people are dying every day in Iraq OR is this hyperbole so your point sounds stronger?

 

[cenimo]

ocean

. Most Iraqi soldiers are also innocent.

Like the ones who fake surrenders to ambush soldiers that could have just blown them away, like the ones who come out and shoot after being behind white flags and then duck back behine those white flags and into houses filled with women and children?

Or perhps like the ones who cover their uniforms with civilian clothes....

That's a rather strange concept of innocent and who is innocent...

 

[OldBadfish]

Today at 10:12 AM drstevej said this in Post #92



Great summary of Iraq under Saddam.

BTW, can you document that thousands of innocent people are dying every day in Iraq OR is this hyperbole so your point sounds stronger?

It's obviously hyperbole.

Hows it going drsteve?

 

[drstevej]

Today at 12:38 PM Badfish said this in Post #94



It's obviously hyperbole.

Hows it going drsteve?

Doing well. Just uploaded a picture to my profile. A hint about where I reside. Got it figured out?

 

[OldBadfish]

Today at 10:42 AM drstevej said this in Post #95




Doing well. Just uploaded a picture to my profile. A hint about where I reside. Got it figured out?

Mmmmm

Must New Orleans!

 

[drstevej]

Today at 12:46 PM Badfish said this in Post #96



Mmmmm

Must New Orleans!

Close, Baton Rouge. Picture taken at crawfish boil for our pastoral staff at the church.

 

[Lanakila]

Yesterday at 12:44 PM ocean said this in Post #83

This "war" on Iraq is not about protecting America, it is not about protecting the Iraqis from Saddam, it is about oil, money, and power. Once this war ends, America will take the oil and forget about Iraq, and will not help rebuild the country or help the people.

The inspections should have been allowed to continue, the inspections were working and Iraq was disarming. It is likely that Iraq does not and never did have WMD's. Iraq was complying with UN resolutions and did everything possible to avert war.

This massacre is completely unjustified and unnecessary, and it should stop now. There is no justificaton for killing thousands of innocent people.

Check this out:



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<TD id=QUOTE><!--QuoteEBegin--><B>March 24, 2003: While the inane "peace" protests continue (e.g., "Honk, if you're against killing babies in Iraq!"), more evidence continues to trickle through the media-created "war is folly" fog, reinforcing why Allied fighting forces are making the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq.

First off, various &nbsp;news reports continue to filter out of southern Iraq, confirming that U.S. forces have stumbled upon what they believe to be a "huge" chemical weapons factory near the Iraqi city of Najaf.

So much for the continuing Euro assertion that a stand-up guy like Saddam would never to stoop to manufacturing weapons of mass destruction after the French and Germans were so good to him.

Seems Hans Blix was too busy enjoying his fifteen minutes of fame at a myriad of self-serving press conferences, or preparing his meticulously ambivalent inspection reports for the UN, to actually ferret out this huge chemical weapons factory.

And just in case the anti-war media have you again wondering why Allied forces are in Iraq, check out the latest first-person perspective on the war from a refugee from the Saddam's Iraq, reported in Australia's Sun Herald. Here's a bit of what political refugee Dhafir Al-Shammery had to say to the Sun Herald:

"When I see thousands of Australians marching the streets on behalf of the Iraqi people, my heart sinks, because their view is not that of the Iraqi people.

"They [the protesters] say they are making a stand against the war because of human rights issues. They say it is the Iraqi people who will suffer most through this conflict.

"I speak out because they need to be told they are wrong. They need to support their country. They need to be told the truth -- and that is that the Iraqi people have been suffering human rights crimes for decades.

"I am sorry, but these protesters cannot even imagine what has gone on there. Nobody would know unless they had lived and suffered it."

According to the Sun Herald, Al-Shammery, 38, was one of the Shi'ite Muslim majority persecuted by Saddam after the 1991 Gulf War. After his cousin was arbitrarily executed, he fled with six other Iraqis on a small open skiff, which for seven days battled huge waves. He neither slept nor ate in that time.

"I knew I had a 100 per cent chance of death if I stayed [in Iraq], but only a 90 per cent chance of death if I fled in a little boat," he told the Australian newspaper. "So I chose the 10 per cent chance of life. Wouldn't you?"

Mr. Al-Shammery also vividly describes the way of life in Saddam's Iraq which idealistic anti-war protestors (and the French) are so vocal about preserving:

"The protesters need to understand that in Iraq, there is no freedom of expression ... not through speech or thought, nothing ... If you are not with him [Saddam], that means you are against him. A murmur of discontent to your neighbour across the fence can lead to your wife being executed. And then, the Government visits your home and makes you pay money for the bullet that killed her.

"They bring your dead wife, they show you how she was tortured before the bullet put her out of her misery. And if you refuse to pay for the bullet that killed her, they simply take more of your family."

One would suspect that Dhafir Al-Shammery would only have one piece of advice for George W. Bush and Tony Blair regarding the war on Saddam: Stay the course!

After all, as he told the Sun, "I honestly believe that we will see the Coalition take over very quickly, because the people want this. Everywhere in Iraq, they have prayed for this."

The Iconoclast</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[Lanakila]

This article is great too:
I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam
By Daniel Pepper
(Filed: 23/03/2003)

I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.

So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.

The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.

We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.

I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.

It scared the #### out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a ******* from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."

Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.

I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.

"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."

We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.

The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.

Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"

It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.

Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.

Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.

 

[Axion]

Yesterday at 05:53 PM Apollo Belvedre said this in Post #90

ocean,

You're right, the senseless acts of mass murder must be stopped and thats why we're in the Persian Gulf, to remove the despotic Saddam Hussein from power so that no more of his own people have to die by his hand.&nbsp; I'm sorry but I find it rather ignorant of you to imply that the U.S. would deliberately target "thousands" of civilians.&nbsp; If you're not aware Saddam is exploiting the lives of his own people and the humanity of Coalition forces to further military objectives.&nbsp; And I'm sorry if you don't want to hear it but yes, Iraqis are being liberated.&nbsp;&nbsp;

Already the UK and US have killed and maimed more innocent people in this illegal aggression than Saddam dreamed of.

Attacking a country at peace without provocation is illegal and fascistic. What possible right has the US to decide what sort of government other countries should have, then go in and drop cluster bombs, napalm, depleted uranium shells and other horrific engines of slaughter in those countries.

Can you not see that this is a Nazi act? How would you like it to happen to you?

"Liberation" by carpet bombing is a sick joke. Can't you see that this is making more and more people hate the US? When someone else comes and bombs America, you'll ask Why? Why?

Watch the TV now and you'll see why.