Why There Will Be No Third Temple!!!

Choose Wisely · Apr 1, 2013

ebedmelech said:
That doesn't make your case either. However I won't allege (like you), that because someone doesn't see the scripture as I do, that they "lie to themselves". That would be quite presumptive of me.

Living as a Christian means coming to more understanding as we grow. I dont agree with your approach to these passages, but far be it from me to try to classify how you believe because God grows us all up. I'll leave that to Him.

This is my last response on this...

You compare the passages Matthew 24, 25....Mark 13...and Luke 21 to determine if they're the same event. Knowing Luke's account is from eyewitnesses, and he was not there. Luke would be like a reporter.

Event's recorded, that are the same leading up to the Olivet discourse:

* Jesus authority is questioned - Matthew 20:23, Luke 20:1, Mark 11:27

*The "parable of the vine grower" Matthew 21:23, Luke 20:9, Mark 12:1

*The question on paying taxes to Caesar - Matthew 22:16, Luke 20:19, Mark 12:13

* The question on resurrection from the Sadducess - Matthew 22:23, Mark 12:18, Luke 20:27

*The question "Whos son is Christ?" - Matthew 22:41, Mark 12:35, Luke 20:41

*The "widow's mite" - Mark 12:41, Luke 21:1

Those events all lead up to Jesus giving the Olivet Discourse. With the exception of the "widow's mite", all three record them before the Olivet Discourse is given.

This tells you they're speaking of the same event when the Olivet Discourse is given.

They record the same events for the most part, so how is it the Olivet Discourse is not the same event?

They all say they were at the temple:

*Matthew 24:1 - Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

Mark 13:1 - As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!

Luke 24:5 - 5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said,

The preponderance of the evidence says these writers are addressing the same event with different focus.

Believe what you wantbut I see the same event.

Bottom line.......Luke 21 ......BUT BEFORE ALL THESE........talks of the events of 70ad..........there is no abomination of desolation SET UP, there is armies bringing desolation.

Bottom line......Matt 24 .......THEN..........................talks of future events.
There is an abomination of desolation set up.

Also, we know this............

Matt 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I still see stones that are upon one another........as in the wailing wall. There will come a time after the 3rd temple is built that all of the stones will be thrown down.

dfw69 · Apr 1, 2013

Choose Wisely said:
Bottom line.......Luke 21 ......BUT BEFORE ALL THESE........talks of the events of 70ad..........there is no abomination of desolation SET UP, there is armies bringing desolation.

Bottom line......Matt 24 .......THEN..........................talks of future events.
There is an abomination of desolation set up.

Also, we know this............

Matt 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I still see stones that are upon one another........as in the wailing wall. There will come a time after the 3rd temple is built that all of the stones will be thrown down.

Yep

ebedmelech · Apr 1, 2013

Choose Wisely said:
Bottom line.......Luke 21 ......BUT BEFORE ALL THESE........talks of the events of 70ad..........there is no abomination of desolation SET UP, there is armies bringing desolation.

Bottom line......Matt 24 .......THEN..........................talks of future events.
There is an abomination of desolation set up.

Also, we know this............

Matt 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I still see stones that are upon one another........as in the wailing wall. There will come a time after the 3rd temple is built that all of the stones will be thrown down.

That wouldn't be true at all.

Your "but before all these" that you're so hung up on is only saying before those things happen the persecution would happen

Luke 21:10, 11:
10 Then He continued by saying to them, “Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,
11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

These are the things Christ lays out to come...then he says:

Luke 21:12:
12 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake.

That's the persecution of the church.

The events of 70 A. D. are the abomination of desolation. You know that because Jesus gives that as a sign for the disciples to flee the city:

Matthew 24:15-17:
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

Luke says it pretty plain in Luke 21:20, 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

That is 70 A. D....that's when the temple was destroyed...you just don't acknowledge it.

Here's a nice piece on that destruction:

The Destruction of the Second Temple

Do yourself a favor and read Josephus' and Tacitus' writings on this.

You also don't understand what was the "temple proper" what you see today are the walls around the temple, they are NOT the temple. Do the research.

Dunbar · Apr 2, 2013

ebedmelech said:
The events of 70 A. D. are the abomination of desolation. You know that because Jesus gives that as a sign for the disciples to flee the city:

The abomination of desolation (AOD) is connected to so many other things in bible prophecy. We know that the little horn/king of the north removes the daily, sets up the AOD and these events are seperated by 1290 days. 45 days later some type of blessing occurs.

In order for 70ad to be the true fulfillment you have to first show who the little horn is and then show where he removed the daily 1290 days prior. These days cannot be day for year either because no king can live for over a thousand years. All the pieces of the puzzle need to fit not just one or two - that's just sloppy scholarship.

ebedmelech · Apr 2, 2013

Dunbar said:
The abomination of desolation (AOD) is connected to so many other things in bible prophecy. We know that the little horn/king of the north removes the daily, sets up the AOD and these events are seperated by 1290 days. 45 days later some type of blessing occurs.

In order for 70ad to be the true fulfillment you have to first show who the little horn is and then show where he removed the daily 1290 days prior. These days cannot be day for year either because no king can live for over a thousand years. All the pieces of the puzzle need to fit not just one or two - that's just sloppy scholarship.

Not at all!!!

The "little horn" was Antiochus Epiphanes that was fulfilled before Jesus was born into the world!

This is recorded in 1 & 2 Maccabees and was prophesied in Daniel 11.

So when Jesus mentions the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24, the disciples know what he means because every since the "Maccabean Revolt" when they defeated Antiochus Epiphanes and cleansed the temple, they celebrate Hannukkah.

It has been fulfilled.

Kingdom_Come · Apr 2, 2013

It sounds like Choose Wisely is pretty close in his understanding of Luke and how it differs from the accounts in Matthew and Mark. I will post a link to some postings that address the accounts in the gospels as part of attempting to answer broader questions which eventually lead to a discussion on the abomination of desolation. It's a long read, but everything is linked to one another to make it a bit easier to follow for anyone that is interested.

The posts begin here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7533924-29/#post56959718

hiscosmicgoldfish · Apr 2, 2013

Dunbar said:
The abomination of desolation (AOD) is connected to so many other things in bible prophecy. We know that the little horn/king of the north removes the daily, sets up the AOD and these events are seperated by 1290 days. 45 days later some type of blessing occurs.

In order for 70ad to be the true fulfillment you have to first show who the little horn is and then show where he removed the daily 1290 days prior. These days cannot be day for year either because no king can live for over a thousand years. All the pieces of the puzzle need to fit not just one or two - that's just sloppy scholarship.

The little horn was Antiochus IV, but the count of 1290 days is a latter day prophesy. The 70 AD fulfilment was based on the archetype of Antiochus, but was mainly given with the warning about Jerusalem being surrounded and ditch dug etc.

zeke37 · Apr 2, 2013

ebedmelech said:
Not at all!!!

The "little horn" was Antiochus Epiphanes that was fulfilled before Jesus was born into the world!

This is recorded in 1 & 2 Maccabees and was prophesied in Daniel 11.

So when Jesus mentions the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24, the disciples know what he means because every since the "Maccabean Revolt" when they defeated Antiochus Epiphanes and cleansed the temple, they celebrate Hannukkah.

It has been fulfilled.

when Jesus says,
therefore when you see the A of D, He is not speaking of the past.
they that Christ spoke to, have to see the a of d that Daniel spoke of

plus, God already cleansed the temple waaaaaaaay before that first Hanukah,
and He said He would NOT do it again

you are saying that Christ was teaching them of the a of d in the past, so they would know the a of d in 70ad
and that does not jive with what is written, imo....

too much "end" stuff in Mat24 to support that

ebedmelech · Apr 2, 2013

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
The little horn was Antiochus IV, but the count of 1290 days is a latter day prophesy. The 70 AD fulfilment was based on the archetype of Antiochus, but was mainly given with the warning about Jerusalem being surrounded and ditch dug etc.

Actually Antiochus did fulfill the 1290 days when he returned from Egypt. The Romans stood before him in Egypt and told him if he went to war against Egypt, he would be at war with Rome.

Antiochus backed down and returned to Jerusalem. That was prophesied in Daniel 11:29-31:
29 At the appointed time he will return and come into the South, but this last time it will not turn out the way it did before.
30 For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.
31 Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

The "ships of Kittim" are the Romans, who had taken Kittim (Cyprus). When Antiochus returned to Jerusalem, He turned against them.

If you have never read 1 & 2 Maccabees, I encourage you to do that.

Choose Wisely · Apr 2, 2013

Kingdom_Come;62760919]

It sounds like Choose Wisely is pretty close in his understanding of Luke and how it differs from the accounts in Matthew and Mark. I will post a link to some postings that address the accounts in the gospels as part of attempting to answer broader questions which eventually lead to a discussion on the abomination of desolation. It's a long read, but everything is linked to one another to make it a bit easier to follow for anyone that is interested.

The posts begin here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7533924-29/#post56959718

[/QUOTE]

I read your link. It was very good. I pulled the following from it.

To throw another monkey wrench in, Jesus said, When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) (Mat 24:15).

Now Jesus was prophesying here not reciting history. The Roman invasion was in front of Him, and the desolation by Epiphanes was behind Him. He goes on to tell them that then there will be a time of trouble unlike any the world has ever seen such that no flesh would survive if He did not stop what was happening on the earth. When will that time be? When they see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel stand in the holy place.

Wait a minute, that happened already didnt it? That was Epiphanes setting up the shiqqûts shâmêm (the abomination that makes desolate). Wait, no, Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. Was Daniels prophecy already fulfilled? Must be the Romans. Wait, the sun was supposed to stop shining, the moon was not supposed to give its light and the stars were supposed to fall and the sign of the Son of Man was supposed to appear and everyone would see Him coming with great power and glory. That didnt happen immediately after the Romans invaded. 2000 years is immediately?

Pretty much says it all. How can Jesus be talking about something that will happen in the future (70ad) if it has already happened in the past (antiochus epiphanes).

Just more proof that Matt 24 and Luke 21 are not talking about the same thing. Matt 24 has not happened yet.

Now we also read in Daniel 9:26-27, And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [interpreted by many as the Romans]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he [referring to the prince that shall come whos people destroy the city and the sanctuary] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seen by many as seven years; a week is seven days and each day represents a year; he will confirm an agreement with many for one week]: and in the midst of the week [three and a half days (years) into the covenant week] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [leaving 42 months or three and a half years of desolation during the second half of the week], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate [prince that shall come will be responsible for this desolation], even until the consummation [hell do this until the appointed end], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

From this many deduce that the little horn will come from Rome. Wait, then who is it we see in Daniel 8? We know that the person spoken of in Daniel 8 has to come from the ashes of Alexander the Greats empire. Alexander did not conquer Rome. Yet this passage seems to so clearly fit the Romans who destroyed the city and the sanctuary after Messiah was cut off. If the people of the prince that shall come are the Romans, then clearly the prince that shall come must be Roman? This sounds like a problem.

Something you could consider......Kingdom_Come. Everyone thinks the antichrist will be a Roman because the Romans destroyed the second Temple. I believe the people the of the antichrist will destroy the third Temple......when Jerusalem is surrounded in Matt 24.

ebedmelech · Apr 2, 2013

zeke37 said:
when Jesus says,
therefore when you see the A of D, He is not speaking of the past.
they that Christ spoke to, have to see the a of d that Daniel spoke of

plus, God already cleansed the temple waaaaaaaay before that first Hanukah,
and He said He would NOT do it again

you are saying that Christ was teaching them of the a of d in the past, so they would know the a of d in 70ad
and that does not jive with what is written, imo....

too much "end" stuff in Mat24 to support that

What Jesus was doing was using something he knew the disciples understood from Jewish history!

The Jews celebrate Hannukkah because of the Maccabean Revolt. A pagan (Antiochus Epiphanes), had oppressed the Jews, stopped the temple sacrifices, entered the temple, and desecrated it sacrificing a pig on the altar and setting up an idol in the temple.

When the Maccabeans took the temple back and cleansed it. Here's the understanding of Hanukkah:

Judaism 101: Chanukkah

Jesus mentions this because this would happen again when the Romans took the temple. The disciples made the correlation and in warning the Christians to flee, which they did.

People make Paul's "man of sin" to be antichrist but in reality what does John say antichrist is?

1 John 4:1-3:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

John doesn't say antichrist is a person...so neither do I. Antichrist as defined by John is a spirit or a "state of being against Christ".

I understand what people mean when they speak of antichrist, and I just make that correlation that anyone, whether people, systems, or entities that are against Christ, are antichrist. There have been many...and will be many. We Christians simply need to identify them.

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 2, 2013

Choose Wisely said:
I read your link. It was very good. I pulled the following from it.

Pretty much says it all. How can Jesus be talking about something that will happen in the future (70ad) if it has already happened in the past (antiochus epiphanes).

Just more proof that Matt 24 and Luke 21 are not talking about the same thing. Matt 24 has not happened yet.

.

How much of Matt and Mark do you feel are fulfilled or not fulfilled?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-74/
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled

33 22.92%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled

57 39.58%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled

21 14.58%

I don't really know

15 10.42%

Other [please explain]

18 12.50%

.

Choose Wisely · Apr 2, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
How much of Matt and Mark do you feel are fulfilled or not fulfilled?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-74/
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled

33 22.92%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled

57 39.58%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled

21 14.58%

I don't really know

15 10.42%

Other [please explain]

18 12.50%

.

Wars and rumors of wars could be....or could not be fulfilled, as in world war I and II and the gulf wars. I don't know for sure, at this time, if that part is fulfilled or not.

Jipsah · Apr 2, 2013

Joshua0 said:
Sense you think it is "hubris" to predict the future.

One thing is certain: the "batting average" for all Date Setters at this point is .000

ebedmelech · Apr 2, 2013

Choose Wisely said:
Wars and rumors of wars could be....or could not be fulfilled, as in world war I and II and the gulf wars. I don't know for sure, at this time, if that part is fulfilled or not.

How could it be?? They are characteristc of the seals opened in Rev 6!!!

Matthew 24:4-7
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

Those things have been ever present in the world, but they do not signal the end. Jesus said so in Matthew 24:8:
8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

The seals were opened, and they continue throughout until the end. We have had many false messiahs, many wars, many famines, pestilences, and earthquakes.

THE SEALS ARE OPENED!!!

Choose Wisely · Apr 2, 2013

ebedmelech said:
How could it be?? They are characteristc of the seals opened in Rev 6!!!

Matthew 24:4-7
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, See to it that no one misleads you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will mislead many.
6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

Those things have been ever present in the world, but they do not signal the end. Jesus said so in Matthew 24:8:
8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

The seals were opened, and they continue throughout until the end. We have had many false messiahs, many wars, many famines, pestilences, and earthquakes.

THE SEALS ARE OPENED!!!

Well, I'd say your odds of being correct are almost next to nill. No seals have been opened.

Ecclectic79 · Apr 2, 2013

I think its important to note that a third temple is a problem for full futurists or those who firmly believe that any fulfillment the 1st century Roman Empire had for Revelations was a minor fulfillment or forward echo.

I don't know what to make of that. I have a hard time not sticking to what I see as two beasts, two time periods, the abomination of desolation being a separate beast than the one who appoints ten kings or administrators 'for an hour' for something like the devil's version of the Tet. One is legs of iron, one is feet of iron and clay.

If you fully believe in a 3 1/2 year or 7 year tribulation with the whole of Revelations in front of us - this is critical. If not, I can't see why this isn't moot.

Might it happen if for some reason if Turks such as Adnan Oktar make enough noise? With caliphate law being what its been since the beginning of Islam its highly doubtful but one can't say strange things haven't happened in history. OTOH though what would get interesting - ie. might we.....lol.....have some kind of use of Revelations intended as a long-con for grabbing global power? I think that would be the route that would pull on as much popular believe and popular iconography as possible to bolster the notion in the public mind. A third temple wouldn't necessarily mean that's the case, just that it would be quite as far out a possibility under those circumstances.

dfw69 · Apr 2, 2013

Choose Wisely said:
Wars and rumors of wars could be....or could not be fulfilled, as in world war I and II and the gulf wars. I don't know for sure, at this time, if that part is fulfilled or not.

The wars and rumors of wars are not fulfilled IMO... I think it refers to a time when the 10 kingdoms arise... So not yet fulfilled..these wars take place during the rise of a false messiah in Israel

dfw69 · Apr 2, 2013

Choose Wisely said:
Well, I'd say your odds of being correct are almost next to nill. No seals have been opened.

QFT

dfw69 · Apr 2, 2013

zeke37 said:
when Jesus says,
therefore when you see the A of D, He is not speaking of the past.
they that Christ spoke to, have to see the a of d that Daniel spoke of

plus, God already cleansed the temple waaaaaaaay before that first Hanukah,
and He said He would NOT do it again

you are saying that Christ was teaching them of the a of d in the past, so they would know the a of d in 70ad
and that does not jive with what is written, imo....

too much "end" stuff in Mat24 to support that

Yep

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