Why There Cannot Be Predestination

[BereanTodd]

Your verses in Romans 9 start out as an argument, "what if God..." Paul doesnt say "God did..."

Does your Bible not have these verses...

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 1 Timothy 2:5-6

Two things:

1. There is a sense in which Christ died for all men. Though I am a 5 point calvinist, my understanding of the atonement is that it was both limited and unlimited at the same time. It has to do with the roles/ways in which that sacrifice was applied, and the imagery given to it in the NT. Particularly the difference between the Passover Lamb, and the Day of Atonement sacrifice, both of which Jesus is called.

2. All does not always mean all. The Pharisees at one point said that Jesus must be stopped because all of Jerusalem was going after Him. Was literally all of Jerusalem? Were the pharisees? Was Pilate? We all say 'all' all the time, and it does not always literally mean 'all'.

Because of that you must: A. learn to pay better attention to context and B. you have a great many limited atonement/predestination verses which you have to deal with which you have a great struggle with.

 

[BereanTodd]

They became vain and darkened their hearts. Sounds like they had a choice.

No one denies that we have a choice. We do all have a choice. The question is how do we respond? According to Romans 3 we all reject God. According to Romans NO ONE seeks God. How many are included in "NO ONE"?

We are all given a choice, we are all without excuse, but yet we ALL reject God. At that point God would be perfectly justified in condemning us all to hell, we all are deserving of His wrath.

Praise be to God that He has seen fit to have mercy on some.

 

[DMagoh]

Because of that you must: A. learn to pay better attention to context and B. you have a great many limited atonement/predestination verses which you have to deal with which you have a great struggle with.

OK, I give up. You're just a lucky dog and your neighbor is a poor sap. Congratulations on winning God's lottery.

 

[PETE_]

It's not my view but was is told in God's Word. We are without excuse:


Romans 1:19-21
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


They became vain and darkened their hearts. Sounds like they had a choice.

So you would say that one that was taught from birth that Allah or some other god created the world should have figured out for themselves that they had been taught in error. After all you were smart enough to figure it out for yourself, why shouldn't they have been able to do the same.

 

[PETE_]

OK, I give up. You're just a lucky dog and your neighbor is a poor sap. Congratulations on winning God's lottery.

Was not Israel the only nation to recieve such favor from God?

 

[DMagoh]

Was not Israel the only nation to recieve such favor from God?

They were the only nation, but read in the Old Testament - God made provisions for God-friendly aliens living with the Israelites. The aliens were to perform the same sacrifices, etc.

 

[PETE_]

They were the only nation, but read in the Old Testament - God made provisions for God-friendly aliens living with the Israelites. The aliens were to perform the same sacrifices, etc.

I understand that but I do not think that all people everywhere got the opportunity to join the nation of Israel.

 

[VCViking]

In your view is it not equally troublesome that some get the benefit of living in an environment with many opportunities to here the gospel, and yet other here little or even none?

In your view is it not even more troublesome that some babies that die before, at or after being born, go to hell.
According to your view, unconditional election occurs before we are created and we have no choice. If a baby is not elected to heaven, then there is only one other option.

According to Calvinism, I guess I'll never know where my 2 babies went. However, King David knew and so do I:


2 Samuel 12:23
But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."


How can David go to him? Only if he is in heaven. His hope that he would see the child again encompassed more than their bodies being in the same grave. Hence, it would follow that David's baby went to heaven, as did David. David’s baby went to heaven encompassed more than their bodies being in the same grave. Hence, it would follow that David’s baby went to heaven.


I'll stick with "my" view, God desires to save everyone, but only elects those whom he foreknows will respond to His grace. Since babies and little children can't choose yet, Jesus calls them to him:


Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

Luke 18:16
But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

 

[JacobHall86]

Its not that I think that God is so wrathful that he would condemn billions to Hell, but that Man is so awful that He shouldnt not save a single one of us.

So the fact that He saves even one of us is enough of a reason to follow him.

Whether you believe it or not does not make a differance in that fact that God Sovereignly chooses who He will, and will not save. There is not Scriptural support for any other view of Grace.

God is glorified both in the Salvation of his Elect, and in the Destruction of the Sinner. He controls both outcomes, and is glorious because of it.

 

[PETE_]

In your view is it not even more troublesome that some babies that die before, at or after being born, go to hell.
According to your view, unconditional election occurs before we are created and we have no choice. If a baby is not elected to heaven, then there is only one other option.

According to Calvinism, I guess I'll never know where my 2 babies went. However, King David knew and so do I:


2 Samuel 12:23
But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."


How can David go to him? Only if he is in heaven. His hope that he would see the child again encompassed more than their bodies being in the same grave. Hence, it would follow that David's baby went to heaven, as did David. David’s baby went to heaven encompassed more than their bodies being in the same grave. Hence, it would follow that David’s baby went to heaven.


I'll stick with "my" view, God desires to save everyone, but only elects those whom he foreknows will respond to His grace. Since babies and little children can't choose yet, Jesus calls them to him:


Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

Luke 18:16
But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

you did not answer the question, only change the subject

 

[VCViking]

From the thread:

If somebody is predestinated, what are they saved from?

Originally Posted by PETE_
The word “all” doesn’t always mean everyone inclusively. The Greek word “pas” when used without a preceding article means “all kinds or sorts” or “all of a certain kind”:

Luke 2:1 – meaning the Roman Empire.
Jn. 12:32 – meaning the elect/believers/chosen.
Acts 2:39 – meaning the chosen Gentiles.
11:28 – meaning the Roman Empire.
13:10 – meaning all kinds of.
2:17, 18 – meaning God’s servants.
1:1 with Jn. 21:25 – meaning all kinds of things.
21:28 – meaning all kinds of nationalities.
22:15 – meaning all kinds of people.
1 Cor. 9:19, 20 – meaning all kinds – Jews, Gentiles.
2 Cor. 3:2 – meaning all kinds of people.
1 Tim. 2:1, 2 – meaning all kinds, different authorities.
1 Tim. 6:10 – meaning all kinds of.
2 Pet. 3:9 – meaning all the elect/believers.

According to Strong's:
3956. pas pas including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

 

[VCViking]

FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE? HE DIED...

1. For all (1 Timothy 2:6; Isaiah 53:6).​

2. For every man (Heb. 2:9).​

3. For the world (John 3:16).​

4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).​

5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6).​

6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1).​

7. For many (Matthew 20:28).​

8. For Israel (John 11:50-51).​

9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25).​

10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20).​

 

[VCViking]

After all you were smart enough to figure it out for yourself, why shouldn't they have been able to do the same.

So now we are resorting to sarcasm, especially since you do not know my "Personal Testimony - How I became a Christian."

 

[FreeinChrist]

Closed For Staff Review.

 

[DeaconDean]

Ok folks, lets take the time to review:

2.1 No Flaming

You will not "flame" other members or groups of members. Flaming includes, but is not limited to:
- Ridiculing, insulting, or demeaning another member or group of members;
- Ridiculing another member's beliefs;
- Ridiculing public figures important to another's religious beliefs;
- Stating or implying that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian;
- Calling or describing other people, groups, belief-systems, or ideas as heresy or a cult (or derivatives of these words). Instead of using these emotionally charged words, please state "X is wrong because of Y" rather than using these words in polemical discussion;
- Asking loaded questions that directly cause flames in response;
- Using sarcasm to attempt any of the above;

The posting in this thread is getting way out of hand! There is a diverse crowd of believers in this thread. Some are Calvinist in their theology. Some are Arminian in their theology. And I've even noticed some who show an apparent lean towards liberal theology. What ever your stance, you must respect the beliefs of your fellow Christians. The rule states: - Ridiculing another member's beliefs.

There is a lot of flaming directed at members also. A lot of sarcasim floating around also.

The Moderators want each and every one who posts from here on out that unless this "discussion" is held in a manner that reflects Christian attitudes, this thread will be shut down permenantly. Let us be reminded of our Lord's words:

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." -Mt. 22:39 (KJV)

And I see no love so far! I also want to remind you of what Paul said:

"Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." -Col. 4:6 (KJV)

If every person would just follw these two guidelines, this thread would be perfect.

So remember the rules and what our Lord and Paul said.

Now, I am opening this thead back up, and let the discussion continue.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DMagoh]

JOHN CALVIN HIMSELF MODIFIED HIS POSITION AND OPPOSED HIS OWN FORMER TEACHING OF "LIMITED ATONEMENT" IN FAVOR FINALLY OF AN "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT."

John Calvin, for "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" In His Commentary On Romans 5:18:

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Calvin's comment on Romans 5:18, as translated and published in the COMMENTARY ON ROMANS AND THESSALONIANS, 1973, pp. 117-18 [as published by Eerdmans in Grand Rapids] was:

"Paul makes grace COMMON TO ALL MEN, not because it in fact EXTENDS TO ALL, but because IT IS OFFERED TO ALL. Although CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. AND IS OFFERED BY THE GOODNESS OF GOD WITHOUT DISTINCTION TO ALL MEN, yet not all receive him (op. cit., p. 829). If indeed Christ "SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD," John Calvin was himself (at least at the time of his writing this Commentary on Romans) a confirmed believer in an "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" of the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[PETE_]

So now we are resorting to sarcasm, especially since you do not know my "Personal Testimony - How I became a Christian."

Originally Posted by VCViking
It's not my view but was is told in God's Word. We are without excuse:


Romans 1:19-21
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


They became vain and darkened their hearts. Sounds like they had a choice.

It was not meant as sarcasm. You posted verses to try and say that God showed Himself to everyone and some were foolish and did not get it. So the question remains....why did you get it and other did not? Are you smarter, holier, more spiritually in tune or what?

I believe that it is the work of the Holy Spirit that changes the heart of the elect to understand spiritual things and bring them to Christ. He is the difference, not me.

 

[VCViking]

It was not meant as sarcasm.

My apologies.

 

[VCViking]

It was not meant as sarcasm. You posted verses to try and say that God showed Himself to everyone and some were foolish and did not get it. So the question remains....why did you get it and other did not? Are you smarter, holier, more spiritually in tune or what?

I believe that it is the work of the Holy Spirit that changes the heart of the elect to understand spiritual things and bring them to Christ. He is the difference, not me.

For unbelievers, God's purpose and design is to render the unbeliever without excuse. Men are condemned because they have rejected the Person and work of Jesus Christ and refused God's only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40).

Unbelievers can never say that a provision for their salvation was not made and not offered. They can never stand before God and say, "The reason I am not saved is because Christ did not die for me." No, the reason they are not saved is because they rejected the One who died for them and who is the Saviour of all men (1 Tim. 4:10). They are without excuse.

 

[mlqurgw]

For unbelievers, God's purpose and design is to render the unbeliever without excuse. Men are condemned because they have rejected the Person and work of Jesus Christ and refused God's only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40).

Unbelievers can never say that a provision for their salvation was not made and not offered. They can never stand before God and say, "The reason I am not saved is because Christ did not die for me." No, the reason they are not saved is because they rejected the One who died for them and who is the Saviour of all men (1 Tim. 4:10). They are without excuse.

Men are condemned because they love darkness rather than light not because provision was made for their salvation. They would not come to Christ that they might have life because they didn't see Him as what He was, the Son of God, and they make God a liar because they do not believe the record God gave of His Son. 1John 5:10. The record God gave of His Son is that He is the Savior and that no man can come to God but by Him. Nothing in there about provision being made for their salvation nor about it being offered to them. According to John 3:36 the love of God doesn't abide on the unbeliever but the wrath of God. The only sinner who can hope in the love of God is the sinner who believes. It is to give the rebellious sinner a false refuge to tell him that God loves him whether he believes or not. Any child or fool knows that if God loves me He will not send me to Hell. If He loves me and sends me to Hell anyway what kind of love is that? What does His love matter if that is the case?