Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
If Calvinist truly believe that what they believe was forced on them by God, and conversely, non Calvinists cannot understand predestination as they define it because God has closed that off, why then spend so much time witnessing Calvin's gospel to us? Why speak to the dead? We are no more capable of change then animals.
God did not force these beliefs on us. And non-calvinists are not barred from understanding. I would say that most of the calvinists here one held to the opposite side of the debate. The only dead that cannot understand spiritual things are the unregenerate, and I do not think that is the case with most people here. We discuss it so much in hopes that others will recieve the same blessing that we recieved when understanding these doctrines of grace. It has truely given me a better perspective of His awesome love for us.If Calvinist truly believe that what they believe was forced on them by God, and conversely, non Calvinists cannot understand predestination as they define it because God has closed that off, why then spend so much time witnessing Calvin's gospel to us? Why speak to the dead? We are no more capable of change then animals.
Jesus the Christ certainly appears to understand that God predestined some to belief...
Then why did Jesus give The Great Commission. If people are already chosen, it doesnt matter whether we "go forth" or not.
If you say we still have to witness because we dont know who the elect are... then are you saying that even if someone is "chosen" or one of the "elect", they will only accept Christ if someone witnesses to them...and if someone doesnt witness to them they wont go to heaven, even if they are one of the "elect"?
If that's true...if they aren't going to heaven whether I witness to them or not, then they really werent predestined to go to heaven were they?
Then why did Jesus give The Great Commission. If people are already chosen, it doesnt matter whether we "go forth" or not.
If you say we still have to witness because we dont know who the elect are... then are you saying that even if someone is "chosen" or one of the "elect", they will only accept Christ if someone witnesses to them...and if someone doesnt witness to them they wont go to heaven, even if they are one of the "elect"?
If that's true...if they aren't going to heaven whether I witness to them or not, then they really werent predestined to go to heaven were they?
Look, it's really very simple, God did not only predestine the ends (who would be saved) but also the means...
I know you claim you dont deserve salvation and praise God that he chose you, but dont you at least feel sorry for your next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but dont you feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Dont you feel gulity that you get to be saved and others have no choice in the matter?
Haven't you read the multiple posts where those who believe the doctrines of grace, as so clearly defined in Scripture, have said that we don't know who the elect are or what means God uses to reach the elect so we share the Gospel as if everyone is elect.
Haven't you read the multiple posts where those who believe the doctrines of grace, as so clearly defined in Scripture, have said that we don't know who the elect are or what means God uses to reach the elect so we share the Gospel as if everyone is elect.
Knowing that God is sovreign in election allows me to realize that (as pointed out in another thread) we could meet the likes of Ted Bundy or Adolf Hitler in heaven and that some we believe to be regenerate may not be there (possibly including some prominent preachers).
edie
I know you claim you dont deserve salvation and praise God that he chose you, but dont you at least feel sorry for your next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but dont you feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Dont you feel gulity that you get to be saved and others have no choice in the matter?
No, it doesn't bother me in the least little bit, and understand I come from an atheistic, unchurched background, so this isn't just years of "church" speaking these words. We all are deserving of wrath.
Do I feel sorry? Well I don't rejoice, I wish that all would come to Christ, but the sad fact is, that just as Scripture says, none seek God. We all deserve His wrath, God's justice and judgments are right and righteous. There is nothing to be ashamed of in a holy, just, righteous God punishing that which deserves punishment. God has left no man with any excuse (Romans 1), yet we all reject Him, and none of us seek Him.
I am just thankful that He loved and chose me. And I will spend the rest of my life serving Him in return.
You took that so out of context it's not even funny. I said I don't rejoice. I wish people would come to Him. But the sad fact is that we all reject Him, and apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in our lives none of us would ever choose Him. I'm a missionary, I'm going to spend my life in missions, so don't tell me I'm not passionate about people or about spreading the gospel.
You, on the other hand, seem ashamed of God, and His holy, righteous judgment upon mankind. You seem to be ashamed of the state of man and the stated punishment laid out in Scripture.
I am not ashamed of God and His judgement, we ALL deserve to burn in hell.
I just believe what that Bible says about "whosoever will" -
that Jesus died for everyone and everyone can accept the gift of eternal life if they choose to do so and unfortunately some will not.
That God doesnt choose to create someone just to burn them in hell 70 years later. What is the purpose in creating a human being that you are not going to choose to save, just so you can throw them in a lake of fire in 70 years? There, I created Bob.. I have no intention of choosing him, there is no hope for him, and I'll torch him in 70 years... or maybe sooner! But then, what do you care, you got your salvation.
No, it doesn't bother me in the least little bit, and understand I come from an atheistic, unchurched background, so this isn't just years of "church" speaking these words. We all are deserving of wrath.
Do I feel sorry? Well I don't rejoice,
In your view is it not equally troublesome that some get the benefit of living in an environment with many opportunities to here the gospel, and yet other here little or even none?Yes we are all deserving of God's wrath, but for a person not be bothered that N-Z are going to hell and there is nothing they can do about it seems void of compassion.
Even Jesus wept for the lost:
Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"
What doesn't make sense is why would Jesus weep for those He sent to hell, not because of their sin and unbelief but because He willed it. They can't believe because He did not will it. This just doesn't make sense.
You're right, your comments arent funny.
I agree, you did say you "didnt rejoice" about others going to hell, but that's a far cry from having any compassion about it. And based on what all the Calvinist have said on this thread, it appears that any mission work done is only out of a sense of obligation ("if you dont witness, you are disobeying His command"), not a compasionate love of lost people.
I am not ashamed of God and His judgement, we ALL deserve to burn in hell. I just believe what that Bible says about "whosoever will" - that Jesus died for everyone and everyone can accept the gift of eternal life if they choose to do so and unfortunately some will not. That God doesnt choose to create someone just to burn them in hell 70 years later. What is the purpose in creating a human being that you are not going to choose to save, just so you can throw them in a lake of fire in 70 years? There, I created Bob.. I have no intention of choosing him, there is no hope for him, and I'll torch him in 70 years... or maybe sooner! But then, what do you care, you got your salvation.
In your view is it not equally troublesome that some get the benefit of living in an environment with many opportunities to here the gospel, and yet other here little or even none?
...have you not read Romans 9? Is your Bible missing that passage as well?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?