Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

[Der Alte]

I was not the first to say it. This is His only begotten son...Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels.

Yes, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Here is the sequence of events when that happened, Jesus "existing in the form of God, thought it not something to be grasped the being equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men." This is called harmonizing scripture.

 

[MerriestHouse]

The word "although" is really irrelevant it does not significantly affect the translation. You are quoting either the ISV or NET the latter was edited by Dr. Dan Wallace who has taught graduate level Greek for more than 30 years. It will take a lot more than saying "Nuh uh" to prove him wrong.

I didn't think I needed to list every translation of Philippians 2 that has been changed from the original Greek words. Many of these translations are available online.

NIV. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." NIV

In the NIV, the Greek word morphe is changed to "very nature" This requires a completely different word in Greek.


NASB Philippians 2:6 "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," NASB

Here is "although" and "He existed." I covered both of these words.

NLT Philippians 1:6 "Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to." NLT

There is no justification for changing the word morphe theou into "He was God."

Amplified Bible. "Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was thing to be eagerly grasped or retained." Amplified Bible

The Amplified Bible adds a complex layer of theology to the Greek text. It makes an entire Trinitarian doctrine into the two Greek words morphe theou.

The version you quoted does not have the word "existed." If you are going to argue the meaning of Greek I suggest you use an accredited Greek lexicon. What you think a word means is not enough.

Another straw man argument. The version you quoted does not have the word "existed." A.T. Robertson who taught graduate level Greek for 47 years translated "hyparchon" as "existing." What are your qualifications in Greek? If you are going to make definitive statements about the correct translation of Greek then you need to provide some justification.
Have you ever actually read any exegesis by accredited scholars to learn what their rationale was?

Must you victimize those who disagree with you?

Straw man argument. The word "morphe" does not occur in 2 Timothy 3:5.

These accusations get old. This is what you would have found, had you looked.

2 Timothy 3:5 "holding the form of religion but denying the power of it."

Greek word G3446 morphōsis meaning formation, appearance, form

Also found in Romans 2:20, "An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form G3446 of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

 

[MerriestHouse]

The word "Arpagmon" translated "something that could be grasped" is a noun not a verb, your interpretation tries to turn it into a verb.

The word is 'harpagmon' and it is a noun. The verse should be read "counted 'not' something to be grasped. Ouk is the Greek negative. It is not attached to the verb "hegesato' but to the noun harpagmon.

The mainstream Christian translation suggests that Jesus did not consider equality something to be grasped. The actual Greek text reads, "counted equality not something that could be grasped."

It means that this verse does not say that Jesus gave up equality with God voluntarily. He never aspired to be equal with God because equality with God is not possible.

The accuser called ha-satan attempted to be equal with God, but Jesus didn't even try.

​

 

[Der Alte]

I didn't think I needed to list every translation of Philippians 2 that has been changed from the original Greek words. Many of these translations are available online.

NIV. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." NIV

In the NIV, the Greek word morphe is changed to "very nature" This requires a completely different word in Greek.

It only makes sense when one argues about the translation of a word to quote the version which uses the word. Here is the definition of morphe from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available.

BAGD -μορφη ης η (Horn. +; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo, Joseph.; Sib. Ot 3, 8; 27)form, outward appearance, shape gener. of bodily form 1 Cl 39: 3 (Job 4: 16). Of the shape or form of statues (Jos., Vi. 65) Dg 2: 3. Of appearances in visions, etc., similar to persons (Callisthenes [IV uc] in Athen. 10, 75p. 452B aimos exon yunaikos morphen Diod. S. 3, 31, 4 en morphais anthroponJOS., Ant 5,213 a messenger fr. heaven neaniskos morphéof the church Hv 3,10, 2; 9; 3, 11, 1; 3,13,1; s 9,1,1; of the angel of repentance * é m. autou élliôthé his appearance had changed m 12, 4,1. Of Christ (gods en anthropiné: Iambi., VL Pyth. 6,30; cf. Philo, Abr. 118) morphe doulou lambon, he took on the form of a slave Phil 2: 7. The risen Christ ephanerôthe en etera morphe, appeared in a different form Mk l6:12. Of the preexistent Christ: en m. theou uparxon although he was in the form of God (on morphe theou cf. Pla., Rep. 2 p. 380D; 381b and c; X., Mem. 4, 3, 13; Diog. L. 1, 10 the Egyptians say mé eidenai tou theou morphén ;Philo, Leg. ad GaL 80; 110; 305., C. Ap. 2, 190; PGM 7, 563; 13, 272; 584.-Rtzst, Mysterienrel.(3) 3570 Phil 2: 6. For lit S. on arpagmos and kenoô 1; RPMartin, ET 70, '59,1830. -jBehm, TW IV 750-67: morphe and related words. M-M. *

A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker, University of Chicago, 1979.​

NASB Philippians 2:6 "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," NASB

Here is "although" and "He existed." I covered both of these words.

NLT Philippians 1:6 "Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to." NLT

There is no justification for changing the word morphe theou into "He was God."
Amplified Bible. "Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was thing to be eagerly grasped or retained." Amplified Bible

The Amplified Bible adds a complex layer of theology to the Greek text. It makes an entire Trinitarian doctrine into the two Greek words morphe theou.

See BAGD above. I rely on scholars such as BAGD, Wallace, Robertson whom I have quoted in this thread.

Must you victimize those who disagree with you?

How have I victimized you?

These accusations get old. This is what you would have found, had you looked.

2 Timothy 3:5 "holding the form of religion but denying the power of it."

Greek word G3446 morphōsis meaning formation, appearance, form

Also found in Romans 2:20, "An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form G3446 of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

What accusations? I very rarely say anything I can't back up. The word that occurs in Philippians 2:6 is μορφή/morphe, Strong's G3444, not μόρφωσις/morphosis, Strong's G3446.

 

[MerriestHouse]

The word that occurs in Philippians 2:6 is μορφή/morphe, Strong's G3444, not μόρφωσις/morphosis, Strong's G3446.

G3446 is from G3445, which is from G3444.

 

[Der Alte]

The word is 'harpagmon' and it is a noun. The verse should be read "counted 'not' something to be grasped. Ouk is the Greek negative. It is not attached to the verb "hegesato' but to the noun harpagmon.

I think I provided a quote from and linked to a 25 page scholarly article discussing this very word. What scholarship do you have to back up your assertions?

The mainstream Christian translation suggests that Jesus did not consider equality something to be grasped. The actual Greek text reads, "counted equality not something that could be grasped."

As I have shown I don't rely on translations, mainstream or otherwise. Still trying to make Harpagmos a verb. The word "einai" translated "to be" in many versions is a present infinitive, not a future or subjunctive. "The being equal" was a then, present reality not something considered and declined.

It means that this verse does not say that Jesus gave up equality with God voluntarily. He never aspired to be equal with God because equality with God is not possible.

Unsupported opinion. Please read the Harvard article I quoted and linked to and note the scholarship of the author. When you have, or quote someone with, a similar level of scholarship then your views might merit further consideration.

The accuser called ha-satan attempted to be equal with God, but Jesus didn't even try.

As I have shown this is totally incorrect.

 

[Der Alte]

G3446 is from G3445, which is from G3444.

You are arguing a lexical fallacy "Root fallacy: assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;"

 

[Der Alte]

The word is 'harpagmon' and it is a noun. ...

Actually no the word is not "harpagmon" since Greek has no letter "H." In Greek the first letter is alpha, ἁρπαγμός often transliterated harpagmos. The "breathing mark" over the "alpha" indicates a sound which cannot be written in English. I will go with the pronunciation from the school I attended.

 

[Goatee]

Why do people always argue on here?

 

[Strong in Him]

Psalm 49 states that a man cannot redeem another person's soul

Psa 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever; )
9 That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption. ​

Exactly. Jesus must have been more than just a man - otherwise he didn't redeem us, we are still lost, have no hope and there is no Gospel.

 

[7xlightray]

If by rejecting the trinity people are saying, "I reject the doctrine that Christ was God", then my other questions apply; can someone be conceived by the Spirit of God and yet not be God?

Yes, if the Spirit became flesh.
Can someone be born of God, and be that God, that they were born from? He would be an image of that God.

Was it only a man who died on the cross?

It had to be a man, that died, for God is immortal and can't die. Nor could it be an animal, who has no knowledge of sin, nor is spiritual.

And how can a mere human being give us eternal life?

Your sins were forgiven, and now you live to God, the end of which is eternal life. Your power of choice...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power(G1849 – exousia - choice) to becomethe sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Luke 21:19; John 12:25; Romans 2:6-8; 5:10,21; 6:22-23; 8:13; Galatians 6:8; 1 Timothy 4:8,16; 6:18; 1 John 3:15; 5:11; Revelation 12:11.​

If the Spirit also isn't God, then how can he give new life, make someone a new creation and assure us of our adoption as God's children?

The Spirit is God, just not another person. God dwells in heaven. By His Spirit God is everywhere. It is the Father's Spirit, which is in Christ. He then takes that same Spirit and puts that same Spirit in us, which is the Father's Spirit. This is how Jesus was/is one with the Father, and how we are one with them.

What are Jesus and the Spirit anyhow if they are not God, and what is the Gospel all about; how is it Good News that a human being was once crucified by the Romans?

Jesus is the image of God, he is the son of God, the word that came down to reveal the Father. The spiritual man. Jesus the person, and there is only one person Jesus, calls God, his God.

The Spirit is the word, power, life, is God (Who is the Father), that which God operates through.

The Gospel is about the good new of the kingdom of God, and all it pertains. Jesus who resisted temptation, destroyed sin in the flesh, the spotless lamb that cleanses our conscious Heb. 10:2,22, raised to life, that we may live the new life in this age, and in the ages to come, in God's kingdom. An animal could not do these things, they do not overcome, or resist sin, they are not aware of sin, nor in the image of God. And God can't die. God said man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Man being made from the earth, was not a spiritual being, did not have a spiritual mind. He was created good, and did not know good, or evil. We needed a spiritual mind. God sent His word, His mind, that became flesh, and now we have the mind of Christ, which is the mind of God the Father.

I tried to sum that up as short as I could.

 

[7xlightray]

Yes, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Here is the sequence of events when that happened, Jesus "existing in the form of God, thought it not something to be grasped the being equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men." This is called harmonizing scripture.

I thought we could not move on to other scriptures until we were finished with John 17:5. Are we finished? If we are, you were to answer my question.

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels.

 

[Der Alte]

I thought we could not move on to other scriptures until we were finished with John 17:5. Are we finished? If we are, you were to answer my question.

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels.

I saw your post quoting an out-of-context proof text so I addressed it. What question did you ask that I did not answer? You still have not shown any compelling evidence/argument that in John 17:5 Jesus was not referring to glory that He literally/actual had with the Father before the world was as He said but He was supposedly cryptically referring to God's plan to give Jesus glory at some later time.

 

[MerriestHouse]

Please read the Harvard article I quoted and linked to and note the scholarship of the author. When you have, or quote someone with, a similar level of scholarship then your views might merit further consideration.

Is the writer of the Harvard article a member here?

In context, Paul is telling the disciples in Philippi to be compassionate and have love for each other. He tells them not to do anything out of rivalry, or empty conceit, but in humility, esteeming another above themselves. They should let this thinking be in them which was also in Christ Jesus. He then gives the example of the thinking of Christ Jesus.

The Greek text reads, "Jesus Christ who existing in the form of God, counted equality not something that could be grasped,"

Paul goes on to say that He chose to be an humble slave.

I trust a Jewish, Hebrew and Greek Scholar who relies on the Codex Sinaiticus, Papyrus 46 and others. He is not a member here either.

 

[7xlightray]

I saw your post quoting an out-of-context proof text so I addressed it. What question did you ask that I did not answer?

Someone said he was not made lower then the angels, and I quoting Heb. 2:9, that states Jesus was made lower then the angels. Not sure how that is out of context?

And to your reply post of Phil 2:6-7, to my post Heb. 2:7. I gave you again Heb 2:7. It states this action was done to him (you can check the Greek), obviously by the Father, Who gave him glory, and Heb. 2:7 is a clear statement of this act, of being made lower then the angels.


I had asked...

“The real question, seeing as you state, and believe Jesus is not speaking in figurative language to the Father, and he has no reason to be; and you take Jesus literally, and at face value in verse 5, then why don't you take Jesus literally, and at face value in verse 3, Father the only true God?”

You still have not shown any compelling evidence/argument that in John 17:5 Jesus was not referring to glory that He literally/actual had with the Father before the world was as He said but He was supposedly cryptically referring to God's plan to give Jesus glory at some later time.

You were trying to prove Jesus preexisted using John 17:5. And I showed the context is, Jesus referring to the plan of God before the foundation of the world, with John 17:2, 5 and 24. The context is not Jesus trying to prove he preexisted, so the burden is on you, to prove Jesus was referring to his preexistence. You don't need to prove it to me, but to yourself. Seeing this is the case then, there is a very good chance Jesus is referring to the plan of God, even simply on the grounds of how verse 5 and 24 are worded. And verse 2 is clearly referring to the plan of God. Context is important.

All I'm saying is it is our salvation, and truth is important, and we don't owe anyone anything. We are free to ask God who he is. Would it not be prudent to check into other ways of understanding Who God is?
...for pay close attention to a verse/s many quote, but do not hear...

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

So, we better be sure we know Who raised him from the dead.

For this is God testing us...Deuteronomy 13:1-3.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes, if the Spirit became flesh.
Can someone be born of God, and be that God, that they were born from? He would be an image of that God.

Scripture says that he was God, while he was on earth.

It had to be a man, that died, for God is immortal and can't die. Nor could it be an animal, who has no knowledge of sin, nor is spiritual.

Well obviously he wasn't an animal.
But if he was ONLY a human being, then we are not saved. A mere human being cannot be perfect, reconcile us to God and give us eternal life. A mere human being could not have said that no one has been to heaven except the Son of Man who came from heaven, John 3:13. A mere human being could not have claimed to be the only way to God - well, not without people thinking he was mad or had delusions of grandeur.

Your sins were forgiven, and now you live to God, the end of which is eternal life. Your power of choice.

How exactly were our sins forgiven? How can we have faith that a mere human being had the authority to lay down his life for his sheep and to take it back again, John 10:17? How would a human do that anyway? How can a human being give eternal life to another human being? No one had ever managed it before; not Noah or Job, both of whom are described as upright and blameless, nor the prophets, who spoke the word of the Lord. The prophets prophesied Jesus' coming, birth, ministry and death, and Jeremiah spoke of a new covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34 - which Jesus fulfilled and sealed with his blood, Matthew 26:28. How could a human being claim to fulfil that covenant and to shed his blood for the sins of the world?

The Spirit is God, just not another person.

So the Father is God and the Spirit is God, just not the Son?
So that means that you either have two Gods, or some kind of duality within the Godhead - like a trinity but with only 2.

It is the Father's Spirit, which is in Christ. He then takes that same Spirit and puts that same Spirit in us, which is the Father's Spirit. This is how Jesus was/is one with the Father, and how we are one with them.

Yes, but it's clear that the Father, Son and Spirit are each separate, and distinct, persons - that's not the best word, but I can't think of another.
In John 14:16 Jesus says, "I will ask my Father and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth." In John 16:7 he says that the Counsellor cannot come unless Jesus goes away. So Jesus knew that he was going to leave the disciples - crucifixion, resurrection and ascension - and be no longer physically present. But after he had left them, God the Father was going to send his Spirit to them. He didn't say "the Father will come to you", but that the Father would send his Spirit. Paul tells us that it is the Holy Spirit who assures us that we have been adopted by the Father, are his children and heirs, together with Christ, Romans 8:16-17. And also that the Spirit is transforming us into the Lord's likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

As I said, the trinity is completely involved in our salvation. We had sinned against the Father and were separated from him, the Father sent his Son to reconcile us to him, and later also the Spirit to live in us. We have been reconciled to God the Father by God the Son, and God gives us his Spirit to assure us of that. It is only by the Holy Spirit that we can be convicted of sin, John 16:8-9; he convicts us and draws us to the Son, our Saviour, who lay down his life for us and can forgive us, reconcile us to God and give eternal life, John 6:40; Mark 10:45; Luke 19:10; John 3:16; John 10:11. We are reconciled to, and have peace with, the Father through the Son, and have the Spirit who guarantees that we are the Father's children and heirs with Christ, and guarantees our future inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5.
We often say that we will give our lives completely to God - we can do this only because God has given himself completely to us.

Jesus who resisted temptation, destroyed sin in the flesh, the spotless lamb that cleanses our conscious Heb. 10:2,22, raised to life, that we may live the new life in this age, and in the ages to come, in God's kingdom.

Jesus also said that he had come from heaven, was one with the Father, was able to give eternal life, was the only way to God, shared God's glory before the world began, and had authority to lay down his life for his sheep. He used for himself the name that God revealed to Moses, Exodus 3:14; John 8:58, and was almost stoned by the Pharisees who said they would do so because he "a mere man, claimed to be God", John 5:18, John 8:59, John 10:33. The high priest condemned Jesus to death for blasphemy, Matthew 26:65.
If none of these claims that Jesus made were true, he was lying and could not be spotless; if he is spotless, then he cannot lie and so all the things he claimed must be true. Paul also says that this is why God raised him from the dead - to show that he was who he had claimed to be, Romans 1:4.

An animal could not do these things, they do not overcome, or resist sin, they are not aware of sin, nor in the image of God.

Of course they can't, and I don't think I implied otherwise, so I'm not sure where that comes from.

God said man has become like one of us,

Yes, US - plural. To what does US refer?

 

[7xlightray]

Scripture says that he was God, while he was on earth.

This is what scripture says...

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.​

...by the one Spirit...

John 3:34 For he whom God [the Father] hath sent speaketh the words of God [the Father]: for God [the Father] giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 [God] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.​

They are one by the Spirit of God the Father, the Father dwelling in the Son, by the Father's Spirit. This is God with us! God the Father with us!

But if he was ONLY a human being, then we are not saved.

Why? And do you have scripture for this?
Are you saying God died?

A mere human being cannot be perfect, reconcile us to God and give us eternal life.

Why? And do you have scripture for this?
I know a earthly man can't.

A mere human being could not have said that no one has been to heaven except the Son of Man who came from heaven, John 3:13.

He was the son of God, and son of man. He was flesh, with God the Father dwelling in him. Jesus is the word, the bread that came down from heaven.

A mere human being could not have claimed to be the only way to God - well, not without people thinking he was mad or had delusions of grandeur. How exactly were our sins forgiven?

The Father is truly our savior, this was all His plan and work Ephesians 1:3-5, and...

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him [Jesus] to reconcile all things unto himself [Father]; by him [Jesus], I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:​

This says flesh, and blood, not God. Flesh and blood is man, God is not flesh and blood, God is Spirit. We enter in by the covenant of faith in baptism onto his death and resurrection. We must believe, faith, and therefore we do.

How can we have faith that a mere human being had the authority to lay down his life for his sheep and to take it back again, John 10:17? How would a human do that anyway? How can a human being give eternal life to another human being? No one had ever managed it before; not Noah or Job, both of whom are described as upright and blameless, nor the prophets, who spoke the word of the Lord. The prophets prophesied Jesus' coming, birth, ministry and death, and Jeremiah spoke of a new covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34 - which Jesus fulfilled and sealed with his blood, Matthew 26:28. How could a human being claim to fulfil that covenant and to shed his blood for the sins of the world?

Just had that discussion in this thread with someone else. We are told to do this very thing. By the way Jesus lived his life, he had no sin. If you recall at Jesus conception, he was called holy, which means set apart (“different from the world” because “like the Lord”). God made sure His word would accomplish all that He set it out to do Isaiah 55:10-11. I answered these question just above “This says flesh, and blood, not God. Flesh and blood is man, God is not flesh and blood, God is Spirit.” And we have the choice to become the sons of God, if we are led by His Spirit.

John 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus...I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee...She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world...Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? ...Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.​

Martha believed he was the son of God, not that he was that God.

So the Father is God and the Spirit is God, just not the Son?
So that means that you either have two Gods, or some kind of duality within the Godhead - like a trinity but with only 2.

May I ask, how did you come to that conclusion? Why is there two Gods?

It is the Father's Spirit that is in the Son, there is only one Spirit. Father is the Spirit. There is one God the Father who is Spirit. Jesus is the Son of that God. So, where do you get two Gods? You can't keep saying that, and give no reason for it.

No, it is not like a trinity, but only two. The person Jesus calls God his God.

Yes, but it's clear that the Father, Son and Spirit are each separate, and distinct, persons - that's not the best word, but I can't think of another.
In John 14:16 Jesus says, "I will ask my Father and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth." In John 16:7 he says that the Counsellor cannot come unless Jesus goes away. So Jesus knew that he was going to leave the disciples - crucifixion, resurrection and ascension - and be no longer physically present. But after he had left them, God the Father was going to send his Spirit to them. He didn't say "the Father will come to you", but that the Father would send his Spirit. Paul tells us that it is the Holy Spirit who assures us that we have been adopted by the Father, are his children and heirs, together with Christ, Romans 8:16-17. And also that the Spirit is transforming us into the Lord's likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

As I said, the trinity is completely involved in our salvation. We had sinned against the Father and were separated from him, the Father sent his Son to reconcile us to him, and later also the Spirit to live in us. We have been reconciled to God the Father by God the Son, and God gives us his Spirit to assure us of that. It is only by the Holy Spirit that we can be convicted of sin, John 16:8-9; he convicts us and draws us to the Son, our Saviour, who lay down his life for us and can forgive us, reconcile us to God and give eternal life, John 6:40; Mark 10:45; Luke 19:10; John 3:16; John 10:11. We are reconciled to, and have peace with, the Father through the Son, and have the Spirit who guarantees that we are the Father's children and heirs with Christ, and guarantees our future inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5.
We often say that we will give our lives completely to God - we can do this only because God has given himself completely to us.

The Father and Spirit are the same, they are not two persons John 4:23-24. The Father and son are two persons.

This explains it... Romans 8...

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God [the Father] sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:​

A man had to die. We can see here God is the Father, that is being referred to.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God [the Father: verse 3. And we know it was the Father in Christ] dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ , he is none of his.​

The Spirit of Christ, because it was the Father that was working in Christ. Jesus was led by the Spirit: notice also what it says in verse 14, being led by the Spirit. God took the Spirit of Christ and put it in us Numbers 11:17

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.​

It's all the same Spirit. The Spirit of Him that raised Jesus is the Father, the Father raised Jesus.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.​

And Jesus was led by the Spirit of God, therefore the Son of God, because it is the Spirit of God the Father that dwells in him, and us. Recall Jesus said it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father Matthew 10:20. He did not say it was himself, Jesus that would be speaking in them, but it's one and the same Spirit. The Bible does not teach the Spirit is another person. It is the Father's Spirit, for the Father is Spirit John 4:23-24.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.​

We don't cry “Son,” nor do we cry “Father, Son, Holy Spirit.” It is the same Spirit, the Father's Spirit that was in Christ, and in us, there is only one Spirit. No one has seen God at any time, the Spirit is like the wind, we don't see the wind. It is the Father that no one has seen.

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God [the Father, whom sent His Son: verse 14] has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God [the Father] so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God [the Father] at any time. If we love one another, God [the Father] abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him [the Father], and He [the Father] in us, because He [the Father] has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God [the Father], God [the Father] abides in him, and he in God [the Father].​

So, the meaning of “Son of God” is not “God the Son,” but Son of the Father. No one has seen God, and this refers to God the Father. And it is God the Father's Spirit, the same Spirit that was in Christ. It was God the Father that loved us and sent His Son.

Jesus also said that he had come from heaven, was one with the Father, was able to give eternal life, was the only way to God, shared God's glory before the world began, and had authority to lay down his life for his sheep. He used for himself the name that God revealed to Moses, Exodus 3:14; John 8:58, and was almost stoned by the Pharisees who said they would do so because he "a mere man, claimed to be God", John 5:18, John 8:59, John 10:33. The high priest condemned Jesus to death for blasphemy, Matthew 26:65.
If none of these claims that Jesus made were true, he was lying and could not be spotless; if he is spotless, then he cannot lie and so all the things he claimed must be true. Paul also says that this is why God raised him from the dead - to show that he was who he had claimed to be, Romans 1:4.

All the things Jesus claimed are true, but you are using only part of scripture, and in some cases not understanding what Jesus is saying, or taking it out of context. And I've shown this in this thread, whether believed, or not.

Yes, US - plural. To what does US refer?

The Us has more then one meaning as Paul states these passages are a great mystery. I believe for one, they do speak of the angels, for God placed not only the tree of Life, but also the tree of knowledge of good and evil; the angels are immortal, and we will be like the angels. And if you believe in good angels, they would be like God, and also the angels do the work of God Exodus 23:20-22. And as messengers in His name, as we are to be. And there are authorities in heaven Daniel 10:13,21; 12:21; Revelation 12:7, as to which Gen 1:26 is referring to having dominion.

I see the Us also referring to God the Father speaking to His Christ, as it is also said, they shall become one flesh, refers to Christ and the church, as Paul shows, it's a great mystery Ephesians 5:31-32. Christ, and the church did not literally exist at this time. It's prophetic, God's plan. Show me where Paul states this refers to a trinity, or hints at it.

If the Apostles were teaching a trinity, this would have had to be shown in scripture, for it would have been another God, then the God Israel knew. This would have been a huge deal, they would have had to explain why another God; how did a one person God, become a three person God. Yet the Bible make the clear statement the Father is the only true God. Must be something wrong with our interpretation then, if we come up with a three person God.

Paul also says that this is why God raised him from the dead - to show that he was who he had claimed to be, Romans 1:4.

Lets look at Romans 1 and see how it reads...

1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,​

Is the God here spoken of, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that promised through the scriptures?

3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord​

Nope, turns out to be the Father, as it even says...

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Paul is not mixed up on Who God is. He knows the God of the fathers, and prophets, the God that made the promises, and spoke His promises to the prophets, which wrote them down, is God the Father.

 

[Anto9us]

I believe Jesus was pre-existent -- he was not ORIGINALLY "made lower than the angels" -- he was "made lower than the angels" when He PUT ON HUMAN FLESH on our behalf...

Jesus was originally ABOVE THE ANGELS - was "made lower" in the INCARNATION -- for the PURPOSE of His earthly work

He is now back "above the angels"

"let all the angels of God worship him"

 

[Anto9us]

Heb 1:1

¶
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,



by whom also he made the worlds;



Heb 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5

¶
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

This is what scripture says...

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.​

...by the one Spirit...

John 3:34 For he whom God [the Father] hath sent speaketh the words of God [the Father]: for God [the Father] giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 [God] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.​

They are one by the Spirit of God the Father, the Father dwelling in the Son, by the Father's Spirit. This is God with us! God the Father with us!


Why? And do you have scripture for this?
Are you saying God died?


Why? And do you have scripture for this?
I know a earthly man can't.


He was the son of God, and son of man. He was flesh, with God the Father dwelling in him. Jesus is the word, the bread that came down from heaven.


The Father is truly our savior, this was all His plan and work Ephesians 1:3-5, and...

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him [Jesus] to reconcile all things unto himself [Father]; by him [Jesus], I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:​

This says flesh, and blood, not God. Flesh and blood is man, God is not flesh and blood, God is Spirit. We enter in by the covenant of faith in baptism onto his death and resurrection. We must believe, faith, and therefore we do.


Just had that discussion in this thread with someone else. We are told to do this very thing. By the way Jesus lived his life, he had no sin. If you recall at Jesus conception, he was called holy, which means set apart (“different from the world” because “like the Lord”). God made sure His word would accomplish all that He set it out to do Isaiah 55:10-11. I answered these question just above “This says flesh, and blood, not God. Flesh and blood is man, God is not flesh and blood, God is Spirit.” And we have the choice to become the sons of God, if we are led by His Spirit.

John 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus...I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee...She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world...Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? ...Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.​

Martha believed he was the son of God, not that he was that God.


May I ask, how did you come to that conclusion? Why is there two Gods?

It is the Father's Spirit that is in the Son, there is only one Spirit. Father is the Spirit. There is one God the Father who is Spirit. Jesus is the Son of that God. So, where do you get two Gods? You can't keep saying that, and give no reason for it.

No, it is not like a trinity, but only two. The person Jesus calls God his God.


The Father and Spirit are the same, they are not two persons John 4:23-24. The Father and son are two persons.

This explains it... Romans 8...

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God [the Father] sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:​

A man had to die. We can see here God is the Father, that is being referred to.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God [the Father: verse 3. And we know it was the Father in Christ] dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ , he is none of his.​

The Spirit of Christ, because it was the Father that was working in Christ. Jesus was led by the Spirit: notice also what it says in verse 14, being led by the Spirit. God took the Spirit of Christ and put it in us Numbers 11:17

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.​

It's all the same Spirit. The Spirit of Him that raised Jesus is the Father, the Father raised Jesus.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.​

And Jesus was led by the Spirit of God, therefore the Son of God, because it is the Spirit of God the Father that dwells in him, and us. Recall Jesus said it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father Matthew 10:20. He did not say it was himself, Jesus that would be speaking in them, but it's one and the same Spirit. The Bible does not teach the Spirit is another person. It is the Father's Spirit, for the Father is Spirit John 4:23-24.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.​

We don't cry “Son,” nor do we cry “Father, Son, Holy Spirit.” It is the same Spirit, the Father's Spirit that was in Christ, and in us, there is only one Spirit. No one has seen God at any time, the Spirit is like the wind, we don't see the wind. It is the Father that no one has seen.

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God [the Father, whom sent His Son: verse 14] has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God [the Father] so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God [the Father] at any time. If we love one another, God [the Father] abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him [the Father], and He [the Father] in us, because He [the Father] has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God [the Father], God [the Father] abides in him, and he in God [the Father].​

So, the meaning of “Son of God” is not “God the Son,” but Son of the Father. No one has seen God, and this refers to God the Father. And it is God the Father's Spirit, the same Spirit that was in Christ. It was God the Father that loved us and sent His Son.


All the things Jesus claimed are true, but you are using only part of scripture, and in some cases not understanding what Jesus is saying, or taking it out of context. And I've shown this in this thread, whether believed, or not.


The Us has more then one meaning as Paul states these passages are a great mystery. I believe for one, they do speak of the angels, for God placed not only the tree of Life, but also the tree of knowledge of good and evil; the angels are immortal, and we will be like the angels. And if you believe in good angels, they would be like God, and also the angels do the work of God Exodus 23:20-22. And as messengers in His name, as we are to be. And there are authorities in heaven Daniel 10:13,21; 12:21; Revelation 12:7, as to which Gen 1:26 is referring to having dominion.

I see the Us also referring to God the Father speaking to His Christ, as it is also said, they shall become one flesh, refers to Christ and the church, as Paul shows, it's a great mystery Ephesians 5:31-32. Christ, and the church did not literally exist at this time. It's prophetic, God's plan. Show me where Paul states this refers to a trinity, or hints at it.

If the Apostles were teaching a trinity, this would have had to be shown in scripture, for it would have been another God, then the God Israel knew. This would have been a huge deal, they would have had to explain why another God; how did a one person God, become a three person God. Yet the Bible make the clear statement the Father is the only true God. Must be something wrong with our interpretation then, if we come up with a three person God.


Lets look at Romans 1 and see how it reads...

1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,​

Is the God here spoken of, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that promised through the scriptures?

3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord​

Nope, turns out to be the Father, as it even says...

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Paul is not mixed up on Who God is. He knows the God of the fathers, and prophets, the God that made the promises, and spoke His promises to the prophets, which wrote them down, is God the Father.

May I ask what you think the Perfect Image of God would be?